From lojban+bncCNCCoMTMDhCysvjlBBoE1-hrKg@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 19 15:18:42 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P8KVz-0000wi-Ks; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:42 -0700 Received: by wwe15 with SMTP id 15sf1430339wwe.16 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=vmcmRMr38Ta7pVi2pHkWUHaqV2VZ5a+w6/L9Bb2+Uw8=; b=HbLGCElt014ZYAXHZ1h3EeKG7TKABjSM4fl+rBgJn6nlO3z8MMAvOLcwDyhshPkAYW mILkYMDvvc2yCm8UH/UnmjNUFw/eaz6IvtvAsdYHfYs10+YuItXDQC69bwWEG/eDqphW RUHEgaZ4MoLF7Dw9ddfuoOs8Wggr1d/dJ7rZI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=KdI1QZfVC98TLNPMViUEMsAjCB8ZFE8pOdbGWTU4IoQ/EQKMHuYongTltw1hXNtFCd tZ+cceyW4mYiaKfC0YEElEeOZw5MEGyVz8pA7VVxkvBT6wDMrfqtSlH8IbvD/KTsu3NP BoQLtSqDtz8RJn0QLVm8mJI0DQUYbGEfKcb10= Received: by 10.216.53.197 with SMTP id g47mr895744wec.11.1287526706708; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls353411weo.2.p; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.239.7 with SMTP id b7mr379950wer.2.1287526704851; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.239.7 with SMTP id b7mr379949wer.2.1287526704802; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f169.google.com (mail-wy0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id m20si3774351weq.11.2010.10.19.15.18.23; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.169; Received: by wyf28 with SMTP id 28so3221556wyf.28 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.10.11 with SMTP id 11mr7321880weu.64.1287526703626; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:18:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.138.129 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:17:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stela Selckiku Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:17:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] video about lo & le To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:04 PM, maikxlx wrote: > Nice video.=A0 But=A0I am unclear about what you say=A0about the veridica= lity > distinction situation.=A0=A0Is that distinction now optional? I guess I can opine a little more about it, since you're asking. This is just my opinion, though, the way I've synthesized the various opinions and ideas I've heard into my own habit of using the language. When you say "lo broda" (which means "a/the something"-- "broda" is an assignable word so it's a standard example), the fact that what you're talking about is a broda is rather fundamental to what you're saying. It's just about all that you're saying. It's possible that you have a particular broda in mind, but you might not even be thinking of any particular broda, you might be talking about the whole class of broda. For instance if I talk about "lo badna", a/the banana, I might not be thinking of a particular banana, I might be just thinking about bananas in general, what the characteristics of a banana tend to be. So while it might be theoretically possible that you mean something other than a broda by "lo broda", it's rather odd, since all you're saying about this supposed non-broda is that it's a broda! If you're going to do that you'd better say "pe'a" (metaphorically) or "sa'e nai" (speaking imprecisely) or something to make it clear you're not talking about a broda, like you seem to be. When you say "le broda", there's something in particular you're talking about. You're describing something, trying to point out something to your listener. It's a little different than the a/the distinction. For instance if you're speaking in English, when you first introduce an object, even if it's a particular object, you're likely to use "a", and then switch to "the" once the object is established in the conversation, like "I ate a banana. The banana was delicious." In Lojban if you're talking about a particular banana, it makes more sense to start right off with "le", like "mi pu citka le badna .i le badna cu kukte". The distinction in English articles is whether the listener is familiar with the object-- that distinction in Lojban is expressed with "bi'u" (this thing I'm mentioning is new to this conversation) vs "bi'u nai" (the aforementioned). The distinction in the Lojban articles is more from the speaker's perspective. Using "le" asserts that you have some particular referent in mind, not necessarily a distinct physical object but not just a generic member of a class of things. So when you say "le broda" you are still describing the thing you're talking about as being a broda, and it's still probably wise if it's not actually a broda to say something like "pe'a" or "sa'e nai" (it's convenient that those modify the thing you've just said, so if you realize right after you've said a brivla that it's not quite accurate you've got an opportunity to soften your assertion). It does make a little more sense to use "le" imprecisely than it does with "lo", though. You're not just talking generically about the class of things you're describing, you're attempting to come up with a word that fits the particular thing you have in mind. So you should try to find the best description you can, but it's forgivable if the best word you can come up with isn't quite right. mi'e .telselkik. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.