From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCatPjlBBoEkXSZRg@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 19 15:22:34 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P8KZi-00017G-L9; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:34 -0700 Received: by gyh3 with SMTP id 3sf2655991gyh.16 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EWV4R+GLZNHepAsBeGX83hzpYnt6czET2xkaFuFSOQ0=; b=EzgKPUYkdecxCJ/4cBiTPiUS6Yocr4z2R5fIzIWZgp4UBielTj/1qVqA/l55YlvrKS XYo41JgtHADMnYXPGmGX6kbiufggYzFwo4b/mra7pZGrWs5OfU23+Jh465g1dbuexw88 n8W2MmmIMGCEif7aO1N74NGJhfyb/oPPF8ajo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=3zbNM6yK0AwMoAqYJwzBq50fkIvTr2acF/P0mm2uyAdebeOf0rqU9JhgAfHl5xCgrr DL1c6OQDxoyGk3sO3sdNPX2yCPndr+wgaOgXuyvXjIvcXtd/4eLWM2MQmuxhi32q2v2E 2WT0NieLbE5e/D80oLdunDrwA5A/Ez37szt7w= Received: by 10.101.106.25 with SMTP id i25mr200601anm.47.1287526938490; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.24.7 with SMTP id b7ls220517anj.6.p; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.111.1 with SMTP id j1mr2469269anc.50.1287526937917; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.111.1 with SMTP id j1mr2469268anc.50.1287526937894; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f176.google.com (mail-gx0-f176.google.com [209.85.161.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id p9si286325ybk.12.2010.10.19.15.22.16; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.176; Received: by gxk1 with SMTP id 1so1771138gxk.21 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.12.138 with SMTP id y10mr4742773icy.128.1287526936709; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.208.15 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 15:22:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:22:16 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] video about lo & le From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301d3d9ab38b7f0492ffb972 --20cf301d3d9ab38b7f0492ffb972 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My understanding of what lo and le currently mean: lo = a le = the Use le when you're talking about a specific thing. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:04 PM, maikxlx wrote: > > Nice video. But I am unclear about what you say about the veridicality > > distinction situation. Is that distinction now optional? > > I guess I can opine a little more about it, since you're asking. This > is just my opinion, though, the way I've synthesized the various > opinions and ideas I've heard into my own habit of using the language. > > When you say "lo broda" (which means "a/the something"-- "broda" is an > assignable word so it's a standard example), the fact that what you're > talking about is a broda is rather fundamental to what you're saying. > It's just about all that you're saying. It's possible that you have a > particular broda in mind, but you might not even be thinking of any > particular broda, you might be talking about the whole class of broda. > For instance if I talk about "lo badna", a/the banana, I might not be > thinking of a particular banana, I might be just thinking about > bananas in general, what the characteristics of a banana tend to be. > So while it might be theoretically possible that you mean something > other than a broda by "lo broda", it's rather odd, since all you're > saying about this supposed non-broda is that it's a broda! If you're > going to do that you'd better say "pe'a" (metaphorically) or "sa'e > nai" (speaking imprecisely) or something to make it clear you're not > talking about a broda, like you seem to be. > > When you say "le broda", there's something in particular you're > talking about. You're describing something, trying to point out > something to your listener. It's a little different than the a/the > distinction. For instance if you're speaking in English, when you > first introduce an object, even if it's a particular object, you're > likely to use "a", and then switch to "the" once the object is > established in the conversation, like "I ate a banana. The banana was > delicious." In Lojban if you're talking about a particular banana, it > makes more sense to start right off with "le", like "mi pu citka le > badna .i le badna cu kukte". The distinction in English articles is > whether the listener is familiar with the object-- that distinction in > Lojban is expressed with "bi'u" (this thing I'm mentioning is new to > this conversation) vs "bi'u nai" (the aforementioned). The > distinction in the Lojban articles is more from the speaker's > perspective. Using "le" asserts that you have some particular > referent in mind, not necessarily a distinct physical object but not > just a generic member of a class of things. > > So when you say "le broda" you are still describing the thing you're > talking about as being a broda, and it's still probably wise if it's > not actually a broda to say something like "pe'a" or "sa'e nai" (it's > convenient that those modify the thing you've just said, so if you > realize right after you've said a brivla that it's not quite accurate > you've got an opportunity to soften your assertion). It does make a > little more sense to use "le" imprecisely than it does with "lo", > though. You're not just talking generically about the class of things > you're describing, you're attempting to come up with a word that fits > the particular thing you have in mind. So you should try to find the > best description you can, but it's forgivable if the best word you can > come up with isn't quite right. > > mi'e .telselkik. mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf301d3d9ab38b7f0492ffb972 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My understanding of what lo and le currently mean:

lo =3D a
le = =3D the

Use le when you're talking about a specific thing.
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Stela Selckik= u <selckiku@gmai= l.com> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 1:04 PM, maikxlx <maikxlx@gmail.com> wrote:
> Nice video.=A0 But=A0I am unclear about what you say=A0about the verid= icality
> distinction situation.=A0=A0Is that distinction now optional?

I guess I can opine a little more about it, since you're asking. = =A0This
is just my opinion, though, the way I've synthesized the various
opinions and ideas I've heard into my own habit of using the language.<= br>
When you say "lo broda" (which means "a/the something"-= - "broda" is an
assignable word so it's a standard example), the fact that what you'= ;re
talking about is a broda is rather fundamental to what you're saying. It's just about all that you're saying. =A0It's possible that y= ou have a
particular broda in mind, but you might not even be thinking of any
particular broda, you might be talking about the whole class of broda.
=A0For instance if I talk about "lo badna", a/the banana, I might= not be
thinking of a particular banana, I might be just thinking about
bananas in general, what the characteristics of a banana tend to be.
So while it might be theoretically possible that you mean something
other than a broda by "lo broda", it's rather odd, since all = you're
saying about this supposed non-broda is that it's a broda! =A0If you= 9;re
going to do that you'd better say "pe'a" (metaphorically)= or "sa'e
nai" (speaking imprecisely) or something to make it clear you're n= ot
talking about a broda, like you seem to be.

When you say "le broda", there's something in particular you&= #39;re
talking about. =A0You're describing something, trying to point out
something to your listener. =A0It's a little different than the a/the distinction. =A0For instance if you're speaking in English, when you first introduce an object, even if it's a particular object, you're=
likely to use "a", and then switch to "the" once the ob= ject is
established in the conversation, like "I ate a banana. =A0The banana w= as
delicious." =A0In Lojban if you're talking about a particular bana= na, it
makes more sense to start right off with "le", like "mi pu c= itka le
badna .i le badna cu kukte". =A0The distinction in English articles is=
whether the listener is familiar with the object-- that distinction in
Lojban is expressed with "bi'u" (this thing I'm mentionin= g is new to
this conversation) vs "bi'u nai" (the aforementioned). =A0The=
distinction in the Lojban articles is more from the speaker's
perspective. =A0Using "le" asserts that you have some particular<= br> referent in mind, not necessarily a distinct physical object but not
just a generic member of a class of things.

So when you say "le broda" you are still describing the thing you= 're
talking about as being a broda, and it's still probably wise if it'= s
not actually a broda to say something like "pe'a" or "sa= 'e nai" (it's
convenient that those modify the thing you've just said, so if you
realize right after you've said a brivla that it's not quite accura= te
you've got an opportunity to soften your assertion). =A0It does make a<= br> little more sense to use "le" imprecisely than it does with "= ;lo",
though. =A0You're not just talking generically about the class of thing= s
you're describing, you're attempting to come up with a word that fi= ts
the particular thing you have in mind. =A0So you should try to find the
best description you can, but it's forgivable if the best word you can<= br> come up with isn't quite right.

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

--
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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