From lojban+bncCNCCoMTMDhCY2PjlBBoEf7OJwA@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 19 16:39:20 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P8Lm1-0005Gi-F5; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:20 -0700 Received: by wyb39 with SMTP id 39sf2041645wyb.16 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=dCwznAGvbdgXTM4tTEyRWT4A2FX+VCUdq2ioXsnNh6c=; b=4OVhvQaQdfpvudcP/U3FAlqDTw3lhJidzBsHoIkDYIGuvTB8Tfm62Nqic0y9QUxARR vEcUfXJIPzw8Wf11s2FOJettCeli/4WMW9BVq2x+W+0mpJqviUpMXPKFm0/pWKUJ6LjF NBbyV2v5Lz28sauyltbSfC3FNO+nY4NcLPAnM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=VlFVoe+NLlkV6PiDe8CxOQuUxQ+U8+vQIH8yNASMtL5leb1xFepPie7JHi1jtl7lJv gWW2OH43f5CrdI0AsdaBaHtup7g4w1KhnaaNThwlbhSljUgphdu90QDGMls9gNHrv/q/ LWzeO2ubz7ogCQg6vJJ0RPNpuKOyxKdcRKAKw= Received: by 10.216.232.5 with SMTP id m5mr927150weq.8.1287531544647; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.168.134 with SMTP id u6ls328012wby.1.p; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.127.204 with SMTP id h12mr339280wbs.11.1287531543022; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.127.204 with SMTP id h12mr339279wbs.11.1287531542987; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id ep20si3632499wbb.7.2010.10.19.16.39.01; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by wyf23 with SMTP id 23so3100039wyf.29 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.185.4 with SMTP id t4mr1629267wem.87.1287531541802; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:39:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.138.129 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:38:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stela Selckiku Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 19:38:31 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] video about lo & le To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: > My understanding of what lo and le currently mean: > > lo =3D a > le =3D the > > Use le when you're talking about a specific thing. On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > My simplified understanding is: > > lo =3D the OR a > le =3D the > > So I pretty much just always use lo Unfortunately the real version of this chart goes: lo =3D a OR the le =3D the OR a So it's not very helpful. ;) The distinctions are somewhat similar, but they're also at angles to each other. The definiteness of something marked with "le" is in the mind of the speaker, it states that they have a particular referent in mind. The definiteness of something marked with "the" is in the mind of the listener, it states that the referent has been established as a stable one in the conversation. Suppose in English we are talking about something generic, and we have no particular member of the class in mind. For instance suppose we're talking generically about bananas. I might say "I like it, in general, when I eat a banana. The banana goes into my mouth, and I chew on the banana, and I taste the banana." The banana has become "the" banana, even though it's a generic banana and not any particular one. In this case the banana would need to stay in "lo" the entire time in Lojban (if you kept describing it-- it'd more likely become "by" or something). If you ever switch to "le" the implication has become that there is some particular banana we're talking about. Conversely, if we're talking about a particular banana in English, we wouldn't use "the" the first time we introduce it to the conversation. If you just start off a conversation by saying "I ate the banana" the person you're talking to might respond, "wait, what banana are we talking about here?" By using "the" you're implying that all the participants in the conversation already know what banana we're talking about. In Lojban though it does make sense to start a conversation by saying "mi pu citka le badna", I ate some particular banana. You can even reinforce the fact that the banana you're talking about is new to the conversation by saying "mi pu citka le bi'u badna", I ate a particular banana which I have not yet mentioned in this conversation. The distinction in English a/the is very closely captured by the distinction between "bi'u" and "bi'u nai", but it's not at all the same distinction as lo/le. Expecting the Lojban articles to perform the new information / old information function of English articles just because they're in a similar place in the grammar is just terribly malglico, sorry. :) CLL 13:13: > The uses of =93bi'u=94 and =93bi'unai=94 correspond to one of the uses of= the English articles > =93the=94 and =93a/an=94. An English-speaker telling a story may begin wi= th =93I saw a man who > ...=94. Later in the story, the same man will be referred to with the phr= ase =93the man=94. > Lojban does not use its articles in the same way: both =93a man=94 and = =93the man=94 would > be translated =93le nanmu=94, since the speaker has in mind a specific ma= n. However, > the first use might be marked =93le bi'u nanmu=94, to indicate that this = is a new man, not > mentioned before. Later uses could correspondingly be tagged =93le bi'una= i nanmu=94. mi'e .telselkik. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.