From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCw3PjlBBoE8zGZeA@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 19 16:48:17 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P8Luf-0005Xp-QV; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:48:17 -0700 Received: by gyh3 with SMTP id 3sf2740039gyh.16 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:48:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=haUYbEfGhiZji/5mVOZqW+rBOS68HXTFR7G8sFuXyr8=; b=p3DRAhnxAmdeAgUhMvh93bHDNJ/Aby+dFlkn5UD+V04hR4zVGjLbj76ozvD359BYb9 kEq9XrMrBVMtMN97wcawTK0TAqWY9Onk4v717NFYYeSOerdwxvmdG9Papip44HEpvB3z R9pcdzxmfQIPRzp1ISoNOhlosnrJDkSyh9/+0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=bttBAQmzex6NGPO8O6a0gjtGU+lpHgwlg1NmMv5J7GdTPu9cUZ9/rL/q3RBOON8GH6 DUI8P571hDQq/bQmvBtXbFHUnbHAPEP2uPDJjr3eCcDTZav8pw7cGNpasF1MMyA5KqqW QFwgYBLtLINFuUiYcv7i57aV9vwdJKFIKtwBc= Received: by 10.151.62.31 with SMTP id p31mr570835ybk.20.1287532080711; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:48:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.55.74 with SMTP id t10ls715314ibg.3.p; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.71 with SMTP id cf7mr3161373ibb.17.1287532079731; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.183.71 with SMTP id cf7mr3161372ibb.17.1287532079668; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f169.google.com (mail-iw0-f169.google.com [209.85.214.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cm31si11353992ibb.7.2010.10.19.16.47.58; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.169; Received: by mail-iw0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 1so3257865iwn.28 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.36.12 with SMTP id r12mr1321356ibd.175.1287532078498; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.208.15 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 16:47:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:47:58 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] video about lo & le From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d5f712d03b8049300ece0 --0022152d5f712d03b8049300ece0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote= : > > My understanding of what lo and le currently mean: > > > > lo =3D a > > le =3D the > > > > Use le when you're talking about a specific thing. > > On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > My simplified understanding is: > > > > lo =3D the OR a > > le =3D the > > > > So I pretty much just always use lo > > Unfortunately the real version of this chart goes: > > lo =3D a OR the > le =3D the OR a > > So it's not very helpful. ;) > > The distinctions are somewhat similar, but they're also at angles to > each other. The definiteness of something marked with "le" is in the > mind of the speaker, it states that they have a particular referent in > mind. The definiteness of something marked with "the" is in the mind > of the listener, it states that the referent has been established as a > stable one in the conversation. > > Suppose in English we are talking about something generic, and we have > no particular member of the class in mind. For instance suppose we're > talking generically about bananas. I might say "I like it, in > general, when I eat a banana. The banana goes into my mouth, and I > chew on the banana, and I taste the banana." The banana has become > "the" banana, even though it's a generic banana and not any particular > one. In this case the banana would need to stay in "lo" the entire > time in Lojban (if you kept describing it-- it'd more likely become > "by" or something). If you ever switch to "le" the implication has > become that there is some particular banana we're talking about. > > Conversely, if we're talking about a particular banana in English, we > wouldn't use "the" the first time we introduce it to the conversation. > If you just start off a conversation by saying "I ate the banana" the > person you're talking to might respond, "wait, what banana are we > talking about here?" By using "the" you're implying that all the > participants in the conversation already know what banana we're > talking about. In Lojban though it does make sense to start a > conversation by saying "mi pu citka le badna", I ate some particular > banana. You can even reinforce the fact that the banana you're > talking about is new to the conversation by saying "mi pu citka le > bi'u badna", I ate a particular banana which I have not yet mentioned > in this conversation. > > The distinction in English a/the is very closely captured by the > distinction between "bi'u" and "bi'u nai", but it's not at all the > same distinction as lo/le. Expecting the Lojban articles to perform > the new information / old information function of English articles > just because they're in a similar place in the grammar is just > terribly malglico, sorry. :) > I was referring to the fact that "the" and "a" are the definite and indefinite articles in English, in similar manner to lo and le, and not to, well, basically any of what you just said. In particular, my use of the wor= d "the" in both this sentence and the previous, wherein the "wait, what banan= a are you talking about?" problem you mentioned is not occurring. > CLL 13:13: > > The uses of =93bi'u=94 and =93bi'unai=94 correspond to one of the uses = of the > English articles > > =93the=94 and =93a/an=94. An English-speaker telling a story may begin = with =93I > saw a man who > > ...=94. Later in the story, the same man will be referred to with the > phrase =93the man=94. > > Lojban does not use its articles in the same way: both =93a man=94 and = =93the > man=94 would > > be translated =93le nanmu=94, since the speaker has in mind a specific = man. > However, > > the first use might be marked =93le bi'u nanmu=94, to indicate that thi= s is a > new man, not > > mentioned before. Later uses could correspondingly be tagged =93le bi'u= nai > nanmu=94. > > mi'e .telselkik. mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0022152d5f712d03b8049300ece0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Stela S= elckiku <selckik= u@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:22 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding of what lo and le currently mean:
>
> lo =3D a
> le =3D the
>
> Use le when you're talking about a specific thing.

On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:=
> My simplified understanding is:
>
> lo =3D the OR a
> le =3D the
>
> So I pretty much just always use lo

Unfortunately the real version of this chart goes:

lo =3D a OR the
le =3D the OR a

So it's not very helpful. ;)

The distinctions are somewhat similar, but they're also at angles to each other. =A0The definiteness of something marked with "le" is = in the
mind of the speaker, it states that they have a particular referent in
mind. =A0The definiteness of something marked with "the" is in th= e mind
of the listener, it states that the referent has been established as a
stable one in the conversation.

Suppose in English we are talking about something generic, and we have
no particular member of the class in mind. =A0For instance suppose we'r= e
talking generically about bananas. =A0I might say "I like it, in
general, when I eat a banana. =A0The banana goes into my mouth, and I
chew on the banana, and I taste the banana." =A0The banana has become<= br> "the" banana, even though it's a generic banana and not any p= articular
one. =A0In this case the banana would need to stay in "lo" the en= tire
time in Lojban (if you kept describing it-- it'd more likely become
"by" or something). =A0If you ever switch to "le" the i= mplication has
become that there is some particular banana we're talking about.

Conversely, if we're talking about a particular banana in English, we wouldn't use "the" the first time we introduce it to the conv= ersation.
=A0If you just start off a conversation by saying "I ate the banana&qu= ot; the
person you're talking to might respond, "wait, what banana are we<= br> talking about here?" =A0By using "the" you're implying t= hat all the
participants in the conversation already know what banana we're
talking about. =A0In Lojban though it does make sense to start a
conversation by saying "mi pu citka le badna", I ate some particu= lar
banana. =A0You can even reinforce the fact that the banana you're
talking about is new to the conversation by saying "mi pu citka le
bi'u badna", I ate a particular banana which I have not yet mentio= ned
in this conversation.

The distinction in English a/the is very closely captured by the
distinction between "bi'u" and "bi'u nai", but = it's not at all the
same distinction as lo/le. =A0Expecting the Lojban articles to perform
the new information / old information function of English articles
just because they're in a similar place in the grammar is just
terribly malglico, sorry. :)

I was referring to th= e fact that "the" and "a" are the definite and indefini= te articles in English, in similar manner to lo and le, and not to, well, b= asically any of what you just said. In particular, my use of the word "= ;the" in both this sentence and the previous, wherein the "wait, = what banana are you talking about?" problem you mentioned is not occur= ring.
=A0
CLL 13:13:
> The uses of =93bi'u=94 and =93bi'unai=94 correspond to one of = the uses of the English articles
> =93the=94 and =93a/an=94. An English-speaker telling a story may begin= with =93I saw a man who
> ...=94. Later in the story, the same man will be referred to with the = phrase =93the man=94.
> Lojban does not use its articles in the same way: both =93a man=94 and= =93the man=94 would
> be translated =93le nanmu=94, since the speaker has in mind a specific= man. However,
> the first use might be marked =93le bi'u nanmu=94, to indicate tha= t this is a new man, not
> mentioned before. Later uses could correspondingly be tagged =93le bi&= #39;unai nanmu=94.

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

--
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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