From lojban+bncCNCCoMTMDhDT8fjlBBoEY4LKsQ@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 19 17:33:39 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P8Mca-0007y0-Fh; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:39 -0700 Received: by wyb39 with SMTP id 39sf2057297wyb.16 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=foKEMoQEZZysKfz+Doclgi/5kOmo07TPPNzXJljPnDM=; b=VsAImFtakQDHsz8FTggwNajhF6RXBWM20wLBqfBoMuEZm8UPafejiZeTOukfpmMEAA bynVbZuFN1+iX4kcQ2WW4RBlZ2+U4/SHugdDYZn0IjOknasUoQGoLWfR4osFs9BIhnDp psBWzcy+VecANpGP7hl6ccpeMe5neXr9XzrVs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=5DzKHK9gCp/WeFwN8zttgB5bW8VPhHEgV4h3uXQTsFWPPQxTKRwUNuNQXPZvlWSc75 C82tFTJ+sb/VqoL6FCaEe/HmcZxZSbFDzpK0R9yb8uwa8HUc4hkjuHqTYd6M7g/SOHud XxqhioeUyhMkJ3Z2r7oZcfysoDoy1aVHugHUw= Received: by 10.216.187.5 with SMTP id x5mr638625wem.25.1287534803476; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls385236weo.2.p; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.82.17 with SMTP id n17mr365130wee.6.1287534801665; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.82.17 with SMTP id n17mr365129wee.6.1287534801588; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com (mail-ww0-f49.google.com [74.125.82.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id r4si5684547wec.14.2010.10.19.17.33.20; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.49; Received: by wwb24 with SMTP id 24so2192722wwb.6 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.28.15 with SMTP id f15mr57704wea.39.1287534800363; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:33:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.138.129 with HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 17:32:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Stela Selckiku Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:32:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: .ai casnu lo si'o cimjvo si sidysmujvo To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:03 AM, Lindar wrote: > While it is far too late for me to try to write that much in Lojban, I > had to use my dictionary only maybe 10 times for that whole thing. > o'asai!! .ui .i'e .o'a dai .i za'a do mutce lo ka lobypli .io > When a lujvo could NOT POSSIBLY have another meaning > (like wet lujvo or nickel-dog), I think it's fine to have an implicit > metaphor marker. This is one of the main reasons I'm in favor of allowing lujvo to be metaphorical: If we don't, there are vast ranges of lujvo space, most of it really, that are pretty much useless. We could try to find some literal meaning to give to "nikyge'u"-- a dog with a nickel tag on its collar??-- or "cimjvo"-- a lujvo that you've written out on a piece of paper and dipped in water??-- but it doesn't seem possible to find meanings that are both literal and useful. Perhaps those who dislike metaphor in lujvo would like to leave most of the lujvo space without meanings? I'm just guessing here. But that could make some sense, for instance it would make the remaining lujvo easier to distinguish when heard in noisy situations, since they'd have less competition. The larger our community grows, though, the less likely it seems to me that we will leave large parts of the lujvo space completely untouched. I'm definitely in favor of at least this much of a prohibition on cimjvo: A lujvo should not have a metaphorical meaning if there's any way to give it a literal meaning that's useful at all. Literal meanings should have priority. > Anybody that feels to the contrary I imagine would be > very stiff/boring. I don't think that's fair at all. We all want Lojban to be exciting and interesting, but we all want it to be tight and controlled in some places yet loose and expressive in others. When I talked about cimjvo with Robin recently (who's very much against them), he suggested some other places where he would rather see looseness, for instance he said he supports the creation of lots of zi'evla and new gismu. > There's a place and time for jvajvo and cimjvo alike; we should have > rules prescribing when it is and is not appropriate to avoid having > large and indecipherable bodies of metaphorical text just like English, > which is one of the things we'd all like to avoid. I had a hunch that maybe some of the instinctual revulsion towards cimjvo, this feeling that they must be indecipherable nonsense, might trace back to the many za'e dusycimjvo invented by la .xelsem.! I'm still trying to figure out what a "banzgu" is!! I happen to love the work of la .xelsem. and it's part of what drew me into Lojban in the first place, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about lujvo with clear, defined meanings that we all understand, just that are somewhat more loosely connected to the meanings of their root gismu. mi'e .telselkik. mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.