From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC5lPnlBBoE-22Xgg@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 19 18:47:53 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P8NmP-0002v6-I7; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:53 -0700 Received: by ywo7 with SMTP id 7sf1724696ywo.16 for ; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=VaoteLES99Nx5eXOrdjfAnp61pf5xppcrtwbnXAFgQU=; b=AQw25978B2JJYUNenSKNhDxdN1V5j6ffmjl2mHnkIyKLXkstj63GLRFZvOfOAnHPkr FL7qjteldYh0LFAQH8fbnYONr/e1Y/dVxoIW+upCgexiWMbb4m7yuU5UU7S7bKdLNGe6 /sHpCzLMR3vOnloUL41G4NxFUZkNchrFgMCo8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=rdtCwJcpc5ohCOuN/e5T7wTaLDy6c5amNmJ+UZaoLjQIDR9ZjeK6+vF92FuYkuoNR5 OS+TPr2ul2uk/5cUJmya+Vs85IfNpb+7ZoAO0+6do2iMnRJbbkTKrBfdwOYlwfLlVSse 3Q0jfzeG/lfmzKYOC2YUVgs/REb/Ic3x3/sCg= Received: by 10.151.62.31 with SMTP id p31mr4411ybk.20.1287539257473; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.102.24 with SMTP id z24ls462426ybb.3.p; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.54.3 with SMTP id c3mr36023yba.25.1287539256774; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.54.3 with SMTP id c3mr36022yba.25.1287539256741; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u22si360472yba.7.2010.10.19.18.47.35; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 59225 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Oct 2010 01:47:35 -0000 Message-ID: <291589.58848.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Qft1Gh8VM1nMN8FGzyn1f6a.abpsI1PKvFA608u8fgDvwd5 mfQMIcwBWaE0_HFFhj67EYhuLpzgXRYURyFGaVVnckMOoKJPhHRLNi1wITYB e4SJG0InSpwnxTSeahAz.zrgGbDN369XladjLXeTpcYRAMs6K0aT.GBP0u0T mtz3a5Pyx_5zGO8sS2DzqRFX0WTXdxAova7nRI0UjIog7w4BHlm.f8pZJ9l_ F2DOo3.cSyrop4ZRHKyRewGVnNr6ASDMFot.4BMwzZTG3yBZlGkyhzlRS_Zi Nr7SXjoxagFTCwcH08xbtRoWjN_ui0LdRqy4gd3o4G6b5zdgg4jGE3QHv3BG 2LT3VDfahOt0xCizD9HmPe7WAiAFpjg-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:35 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.106.282862 References: Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 18:47:35 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: .ai casnu lo si'o cimjvo si sidysmujvo To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Historically, metaphorical compounds were preferred by JCB (who made many of them and called compounds metaphors, after all) but the force of logicalness in its more oppressive form eventually won out. The problem was (and is) that getting a metaphor depends a lot on background information: general culture and personal experiences. As a result, what is a brilliant flash of insight to one person is a meaningless mush to another. The same is true, to a lesser extent, of literal combinations (so called): consider the range of possibilities for such clear English expressions as "green house" and "black bird" where all of the usual ones are quite literal but often missed by even native speakers. No rules work in general; each case has to be explained on its own. ----- Original Message ---- From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, October 19, 2010 7:32:50 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: .ai casnu lo si'o cimjvo si sidysmujvo On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 6:03 AM, Lindar wrote: > While it is far too late for me to try to write that much in Lojban, I > had to use my dictionary only maybe 10 times for that whole thing. > o'asai!! .ui .i'e .o'a dai .i za'a do mutce lo ka lobypli .io > When a lujvo could NOT POSSIBLY have another meaning > (like wet lujvo or nickel-dog), I think it's fine to have an implicit > metaphor marker. This is one of the main reasons I'm in favor of allowing lujvo to be metaphorical: If we don't, there are vast ranges of lujvo space, most of it really, that are pretty much useless. We could try to find some literal meaning to give to "nikyge'u"-- a dog with a nickel tag on its collar??-- or "cimjvo"-- a lujvo that you've written out on a piece of paper and dipped in water??-- but it doesn't seem possible to find meanings that are both literal and useful. Perhaps those who dislike metaphor in lujvo would like to leave most of the lujvo space without meanings? I'm just guessing here. But that could make some sense, for instance it would make the remaining lujvo easier to distinguish when heard in noisy situations, since they'd have less competition. The larger our community grows, though, the less likely it seems to me that we will leave large parts of the lujvo space completely untouched. I'm definitely in favor of at least this much of a prohibition on cimjvo: A lujvo should not have a metaphorical meaning if there's any way to give it a literal meaning that's useful at all. Literal meanings should have priority. > Anybody that feels to the contrary I imagine would be > very stiff/boring. I don't think that's fair at all. We all want Lojban to be exciting and interesting, but we all want it to be tight and controlled in some places yet loose and expressive in others. When I talked about cimjvo with Robin recently (who's very much against them), he suggested some other places where he would rather see looseness, for instance he said he supports the creation of lots of zi'evla and new gismu. > There's a place and time for jvajvo and cimjvo alike; we should have > rules prescribing when it is and is not appropriate to avoid having > large and indecipherable bodies of metaphorical text just like English, > which is one of the things we'd all like to avoid. I had a hunch that maybe some of the instinctual revulsion towards cimjvo, this feeling that they must be indecipherable nonsense, might trace back to the many za'e dusycimjvo invented by la .xelsem.! I'm still trying to figure out what a "banzgu" is!! I happen to love the work of la .xelsem. and it's part of what drew me into Lojban in the first place, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about lujvo with clear, defined meanings that we all understand, just that are somewhat more loosely connected to the meanings of their root gismu. mi'e .telselkik. mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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