From lojban+bncCNXflom_FxCH-6XlBBoENLpBNQ@googlegroups.com Mon Oct 04 00:09:13 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2fAa-000758-I6; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:09:13 -0700 Received: by fxm17 with SMTP id 17sf1061342fxm.16 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:09:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=nhaxKehkbfKeaMPCTUUemMF+E3HmFCGh6JPiD80V/Fg=; b=z/6Rjq/+2e4pbqcmHiIKdQP8wW08mayzNl7gsANLg0b/6g5dMYCI3iyFdVKiyB2aZs hhXLiHP9i0H7edbhc48uzW4DiTH3OQYzJOHvr+VVowzDBn/V3cHzuJ3JH0HmaBMM7Osy JybKQx7aurJF5xMY98ADQ7GG6qpSS1S7j4G2U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=RMgJ5ihMPo7nsHrP9S4nzMixIhJBhS8Qgqwn2+UBOzCUZG+TvceKCLC1HfVChIlwDf 8kxw+ArLealI69Y5IYbIBtTzknzUdQojV8FaAl8IF14NCwgJ8tQgYy5ALQtZ83SvvP1W dUdrSdtEPI9bhzYmh+4KKc1dqFMTgQ7SZ+1pA= Received: by 10.223.54.79 with SMTP id p15mr363437fag.12.1286176135717; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.137.193 with SMTP id x1ls1740022bkt.0.p; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.45.207 with SMTP id g15mr345939bkf.3.1286176134439; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.45.207 with SMTP id g15mr345938bkf.3.1286176134399; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f49.google.com (mail-bw0-f49.google.com [209.85.214.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id z25si2358907bku.5.2010.10.04.00.08.53; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of maikxlx@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.49; Received: by bwz19 with SMTP id 19so3858911bwz.22 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.57.9 with SMTP id a9mr6576925bkh.104.1286176133131; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 00:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.56.195 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Oct 2010 00:08:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4CA4EECB.90309@gmail.com> References: <201009291837.57382.jezuch@interia.pl> <201009291949.20202.jezuch@interia.pl> <4CA3DE6F.2050507@lojban.org> <4CA44E9D.4090804@gmail.com> <4CA4EECB.90309@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 03:08:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] To Polish fellow lojbanists From: maikxlx To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: maikxlx@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of maikxlx@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=maikxlx@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636c5b0d788ae2b0491c53731 --001636c5b0d788ae2b0491c53731 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I believe that And is right about the contrast between [ihi] and [ixi] bein= g almost nil when being heard. I recorded my voice to test this. At first m= y [ihi] and [ixi] sounded distinct, but then I realized that I was pronouncin= g [ihi] with a breathy voice [h] (i.e. [=C9=A6], often an allophone of /h/ in English e.g. {behind}). When I use a true voiceless [h], the contrast with [x] almost vanishes in the [i_i] position. However, the [=C9=A6] v. scrape= less [x] contrast does work in my ear, though it is probably not the easiest for everyone. I'm guessing that [=C9=A6] is already a de_facto allophone of /'/ in Lojban= as spoken by Anglophones. On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:10 PM, And Rosta wrote: > Luke Bergen, On 30/09/2010 14:26: > > weird. I didn't understand a thing that you said, and maybe I'm >> mispronouncing "x" but I can discern a difference between /i'i/ and /ixi= /. >> I judge which one I'm hearing based on whether or not I can hear that >> throat rattling sound. >> > > There'll not be any rattling in your throat, but it might be that you > produce /x/ in /ixi/ with a tighter constriction than /'/ in /i'i/, and t= hat > this causes saliva to vibrate in the narrow channel, giving rise to the > phonetic phenomenon called 'scrape'. > > Stevo: > >> And: I have no problem differentiating between {i'i} and {ixi}. >> > > With regard to differentiating in your speech, one possibility is that yo= u > might be deluded (as people often are about their own speech), and anothe= r, > more likely, is that you have fixed on allophones that are reliably > distinct. Perhaps you have [=CE=B8] in /i'i/; or perhaps you have a scrap= ey [x] > in /ixi/. > With regard to differentiating in your hearing, I would wager that you > can't reliably differentiate between /x/ and voiceless glide realizations= of > /'/ in /i_i/; afaik no language has minimal pairs contrasting voiceless > approximants and fricatives. > > --And. > > On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:47 AM, And Rosta > and.rosta@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most vowels, >> because a criterion for [h] is that there is no aerodynamically >> significant supraglottal narrowing of stricture. So while [h] for >> /'/ in /e'e/ or /y'y/ is practicable, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or >> /u'u/ or /i'i/ is not (because the flanking vowels create >> aerodynamically significant supraglottal stricture). >> >> One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather easy to >> differentiate, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be effectively >> indistinguishable (as [a=C3=A7a]) unless a very different allophone o= f >> /'/, such as [=CE=B8], is used. >> >> --And. >> >> Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - LLG, On 30/09/2010 01:48: >> >> Krzysztof Sobolewski wrote: >> >> Dnia =C5=9Broda, 29 wrze=C5=9Bnia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb= =C3=ADas >> napisa=C5=82(a): >> >> 2010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski > >: >> >> >> So could some confirm that using the same sound for >> {x} and {'} does not introduce ambiguity? :) >> >> >> It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just consider any >> CV'V cmavo for a >> start, which becomes indistinguishable from the two >> cmavo CV xV. >> >> >> >> Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But this is >> problematic with things like {du'u} or {zo'o}. Is there any >> hope for people who don't see (hear) any difference between >> [x] and [h] (both in IPA, according to Wikipedia)? ;) >> >> >> I haven't been following this, but "'" can be any voiceless >> glide (approximant), not necessarily IPA "h". >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant >> discusses this, and gives several examples. It says this about "= h" >> >> Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called >> approximants, since >> [h] typically has no more frication than voiceless >> approximants, but >> >> > they are often phonations of the glottis without any >> accompanying >> > manner or place of articulation. >> >> suggesting that the thing to avoid in distinguishing x and h is >> the noticeable frication. Since I don't know Polish, I can't >> help beyond that point. But perhaps our Russian native speakers >> have a similar problem and could comment. >> >> (People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any >> non-lojbanic voiceless consonant", with the most striking >> example being someone here in Virginia who used a voiceless "th" >> fricative. As I recall, it sounded real funny, but it was >> understandable.) >> >> lojbab >> >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >> Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com >> . >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> >. >> >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636c5b0d788ae2b0491c53731 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I believe that And is right about the contrast between [ihi] and [ixi]= being almost nil when being heard.=C2=A0 I recorded my voice to test this.= =C2=A0=C2=A0At first my [ihi] and [ixi]=C2=A0sounded distinct, but=C2=A0the= n I realized that=C2=A0I was pronouncing [ihi] with a breathy voice [h] (i.= e. [=C9=A6], often an allophone of /h/ in English e.g. {behind}).=C2=A0 Whe= n I use a true voiceless [h], the contrast with [x] almost vanishes in the = [i_i] position.=C2=A0 However, the [=C9=A6] v. scrapeless [x] contrast does= work in my ear, though it=C2=A0is probably not the easiest for everyone.= =C2=A0
=C2=A0
I'm guessing that [=C9=A6]=C2=A0is already a de_facto=C2=A0allopho= ne of /'/ in Lojban as spoken by Anglophones.
=C2=A0
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:10 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com= > wrote:
Luke Bergen, On 30/09/2010 14:26= :=20

weird. =C2=A0I didn't unders= tand a thing that you said, and maybe I'm mispronouncing "x" = but I can discern a difference between /i'i/ and /ixi/. =C2=A0I judge w= hich one I'm hearing based on whether or not I can hear that throat rat= tling sound. =C2=A0

There'll not be any rattling in your throat, but= it might be that you produce /x/ in /ixi/ with a tighter constriction than= /'/ in /i'i/, and that this causes saliva to vibrate in the narrow= channel, giving rise to the phonetic phenomenon called 'scrape'.
Stevo:
And: I have no problem different= iating between {i'i} and {ixi}.

With regard to diff= erentiating in your speech, one possibility is that you might be deluded (a= s people often are about their own speech), and another, more likely, is th= at you have fixed on allophones that are reliably distinct. Perhaps you hav= e [=CE=B8] in /i'i/; or perhaps you have a scrapey [x] in /ixi/.
With regard to differentiating in your hearing, I would wager that you can&= #39;t reliably differentiate between /x/ and voiceless glide realizations o= f /'/ in /i_i/; afaik no language has minimal pairs contrasting voicele= ss approximants and fricatives.

--And.

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 4:47 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <= mailto:and.rosta@g= mail.com>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0It's phonetically impractical to get [h] between most = vowels,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0because a criterion for [h] is that there is no aer= odynamically
=C2=A0 =C2=A0significant supraglottal narrowing of strictur= e. So while [h] for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0/'/ in /e'e/ or /y'y/ is pr= acticable, [h] for /'/ in, say, /o'o/ or
=C2=A0 =C2=A0/u'u/ or /i'i/ is not (because the flanking vowels cre= ate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0aerodynamically significant supraglottal stricture).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0One can easily observe that [aha] and [axa] are rather ea= sy to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0differentiate, whereas /i'i/ and /ixi/ will be ef= fectively
=C2=A0 =C2=A0indistinguishable (as [a=C3=A7a]) unless a very different allo= phone of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0/'/, such as [=CE=B8], is used.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0--And.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Bob LeChevalier, President and Founder - L= LG, On 30/09/2010 01:48:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Krzysztof Sobole= wski wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Dnia =C5=9Broda, 29 wrze=C5=9B= nia 2010 o 19:13:54 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0napisa=C5=82(a):

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A02010/9/29 Krzysztof Sobolewski <jezuch@interia.pl
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:jezuch@interia.pl&g= t;>:=20


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0So could some confirm that using the same sound for
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0{x} an= d {'} does not introduce ambiguity? :)


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0It introduces plenty of ambiguity. Just c= onsider any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CV'V cmavo for a=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0start, which bec= omes indistinguishable from the two
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cmavo CV xV.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0Well then, I think I'll stick with silent {'}. But th= is is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0problematic with things like {du&#= 39;u} or {zo'o}. Is there any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0hope for people who don't see (hear) any difference between
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[x] and [h] (both in IPA, according t= o Wikipedia)? ;)


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I haven't been following this, but &= quot;'" can be any voiceless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0glide (= approximant), not necessarily IPA "h".

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Approximant_consonant
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0discusses this, and gives several examples. =C2= =A0It says this about "h"

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0Occasionally, the glottal "fricatives" are called
= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approximants, since
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[h] typically has no more frication than voi= celess
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0approximants, but

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > they are often phonations of the glottis without = any accompanying
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > manner or place of art= iculation.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggesting that the thing to a= void in distinguishing x and h is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the noticeable frication. =C2=A0Since I don'= t know Polish, I can't
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0help beyond that p= oint. =C2=A0But perhaps our Russian native speakers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0have a similar problem and could comment.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0(People have at times chosen to express the rule as "any
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0non-lojbanic voiceless consonant", with the= most striking
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example being someone here in = Virginia who used a voiceless "th"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= fricative. =C2=A0As I recall, it sounded real funny, but it was
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0understandable.)

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0lojbab



=C2=A0 =C2=A0-- =C2=A0 =C2=A0 You received this me= ssage because you are subscribed to the Google
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=C2=A0 =C2=A0To unsubscribe from this group, send ema= il to
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