From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCumYbmBBoE0UhZqA@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 22 06:08:13 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P9HLt-0001gt-EE; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:08:13 -0700 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20sf1279441gwj.16 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:08:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=PTptZiO5fb4dtt7UNsRfdjrqCpOlr/1aWLhuOMdzM44=; b=pUZ5jagw20h1Y928qW9eoaTU+iJ1+K2a5aPhU64bADNo29Mm9em39Vka6Sg8VAj/i1 +tz9jI+pksVMEnXfh03lBZXtcU4YzF3zGWz3tR0GdrEiaciTCL3l3XdPkBUk3tiYDk6/ iXeYN5qu5CBjvBDg3FrA1M1Gpv5CgDI3aldhY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ISShD9nXnEKb7aG9WGiYR70Gabn62+2+KaBJlI+w8YZc3gVwVeSoZh3X/vNZMFb27M QHg65mGPtPTKKcFXxAkYz05Y41p8UadlC/ucfdEM5ZWld0NI4nrrK1WTD3oaP8hOjhTO 38d2QBMh1tSfiP15KfTo7Dbw7bEONJdegGD4c= Received: by 10.151.17.4 with SMTP id u4mr472676ybi.74.1287752878995; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.1.11 with SMTP id 11ls1966057yba.0.p; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.148.16 with SMTP id a16mr1232728ybo.9.1287752878254; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.148.16 with SMTP id a16mr1232727ybo.9.1287752878215; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f50.google.com (mail-gw0-f50.google.com [74.125.83.50]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u22si1643039yba.15.2010.10.22.06.07.57; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.50 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.50; Received: by mail-gw0-f50.google.com with SMTP id 20so1115241gwj.9 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.23.139 with SMTP id s11mr2007623icb.484.1287752876962; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.14 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 06:07:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 09:07:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] mistakes From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.50 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301cc0f8ca32ce0493345471 --20cf301cc0f8ca32ce0493345471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I see. The youth of the language makes it more un-stable. That makes sense. I was mostly talking about rapid-fire conversation (i.e. informal and not necessarily having many listeners). Another example of this kind of snowballing thing. {xalka}. I've seen it used a few times and so have used it myself in places like {.ui mi pinxe lo mutce xalka .uisai}, completely unaware of the existence of {jikru} which seems far more appropriate in most circumstances. On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:32 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > Which brings up another point. How acceptable > > are "mistakes" in lojban? I know I abuse English > > in all kinds of not-technically-correct ways. > > I think they're slightly more acceptable than they used to be. The > problem is that Lojban is such a young language. At first, a few > years back, every time a word was used was one of the first times that > word had ever been used. We were trying to set Lojban off on the > right foot, to do things properly, because we knew later usage would > imitate the earliest usage. Now most words have a little bit of > history to them, and there's a lot of us who know something about what > we're doing and have some understanding of a lot of the language. Now > Lojban isn't quite as likely to be confused and sent astray by a > single badly chosen word. But it's still relatively easy to confuse, > certainly compared with a giant language like English; nothing I say > in this sentence can make any substantial alteration in the course of > English. Lojban is young enough it could still be confused into > imitating unlojbanic patterns if they're repeated a few times, or > appear somewhere prominent; witness the recent snowballing effect of > the one word "roldei" appearing on a Twitter account many of us pay > attention to. > > Context is everything. Private conversations are less important to > get perfect than public conversations, which are less important to get > perfect than published documents or prominent names and titles. Words > and structures that have been used less are also more fragile than > those we use all the time. There's still a surprising amount of the > gismu list (for instance) that's very rarely been used at all, and > we're all liable to imitate the first times we see those gismu places > used. For instance "bilni" supposedly can mean "is strongly > organized", but I've never yet seen such a use, nor much of any use of > "bilni" at all, and you could probably radically alter my > understanding of "bilni" with a well placed sentence. I'm probably > altering our understanding of "bilni" right now just by this oblique > reference! OTOH I'd say you can be quite casual with "klama", as it > would take a lot for you to be able to alter my understanding of it > after the thousands of times I've already encountered it. > > mi'e .telselkik. mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf301cc0f8ca32ce0493345471 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see. =A0The youth of the language makes it more un-stable. =A0That makes = sense. =A0I was mostly talking about rapid-fire conversation (i.e. informal= and not necessarily having many listeners).

Another exa= mple of this kind of snowballing thing. =A0{xalka}. =A0I've seen it use= d a few times and so have used it myself in places like {.ui mi pinxe lo mu= tce xalka .uisai}, completely unaware of the existence of {jikru} which see= ms far more appropriate in most circumstances.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:32 AM, Stela Selck= iku <selckiku@gm= ail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Which brings up another point. =A0How acceptable
> are "mistakes" in lojban? =A0I know I abuse English
> in all kinds of not-technically-correct ways.

I think they're slightly more acceptable than they used to be. =A0The problem is that Lojban is such a young language. =A0At first, a few
years back, every time a word was used was one of the first times that
word had ever been used. =A0We were trying to set Lojban off on the
right foot, to do things properly, because we knew later usage would
imitate the earliest usage. =A0Now most words have a little bit of
history to them, and there's a lot of us who know something about what<= br> we're doing and have some understanding of a lot of the language. =A0No= w
Lojban isn't quite as likely to be confused and sent astray by a
single badly chosen word. =A0But it's still relatively easy to confuse,=
certainly compared with a giant language like English; nothing I say
in this sentence can make any substantial alteration in the course of
English. =A0Lojban is young enough it could still be confused into
imitating unlojbanic patterns if they're repeated a few times, or
appear somewhere prominent; witness the recent snowballing effect of
the one word "roldei" appearing on a Twitter account many of us p= ay
attention to.

Context is everything. =A0Private conversations are less important to
get perfect than public conversations, which are less important to get
perfect than published documents or prominent names and titles. =A0Words and structures that have been used less are also more fragile than
those we use all the time. =A0There's still a surprising amount of the<= br> gismu list (for instance) that's very rarely been used at all, and
we're all liable to imitate the first times we see those gismu places used. =A0For instance "bilni" supposedly can mean "is strong= ly
organized", but I've never yet seen such a use, nor much of any us= e of
"bilni" at all, and you could probably radically alter my
understanding of "bilni" with a well placed sentence. =A0I'm = probably
altering our understanding of "bilni" right now just by this obli= que
reference! =A0OTOH I'd say you can be quite casual with "klama&quo= t;, as it
would take a lot for you to be able to alter my understanding of it
after the thousands of times I've already encountered it.

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--20cf301cc0f8ca32ce0493345471--