From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxD0uYbmBBoE1cdx3g@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 22 07:17:49 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P9IR6-00071q-MU; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:48 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf562536wyb.16 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=01+VqaWBnN6f/DgrQpZAUGRg7fTjh9KuxrH87kin8rA=; b=UYCqEYb7r2LbMT0aclCe/EbEuPwBAyS9FQx8cOFlPTQfh6wVR8jmusMcDGX6xT6tAy y6GwgcwLLERDnokXNOxXgGpQgAlH60xhL2DT8nC3+sBMPLLHkfw21Z2MpicnNnOQOQBy OuKuQ1IaZ44lfXU/J8SpjKktU6Fw+YRi7NEeA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=bBu6tcCSCdT7TaEVXWCS3z7xAH4HgPNNgBWtGRl3I0sMuWXSpBR4cAy5jfMlgYwSvW CFpOjHoHufYJaOf/UcGIWfrVVAH7P7IdZd9WNLYoVW0gyayS7rpk4rmXew0ZIVo1TlMh jT5fSIHX0L1jkIdiI5EDtnK/9XpdxKDMjfWEM= Received: by 10.216.237.9 with SMTP id x9mr408099weq.11.1287757044070; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.198.162 with SMTP id v34ls1627218wen.3.p; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.68 with SMTP id w46mr141255wed.8.1287757042855; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.74.68 with SMTP id w46mr141254wed.8.1287757042752; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com (mail-wy0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id l5si968056weq.15.2010.10.22.07.17.21; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.182; Received: by mail-wy0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 42so941933wyb.41 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.168.202 with SMTP id k52mr2568893wel.105.1287757041361; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.68] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p4sm1945652wej.28.2010.10.22.07.17.15 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 22 Oct 2010 07:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CC19CEA.4000300@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 15:17:14 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] mistakes References: In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Stela Selckiku, On 22/10/2010 14:26: > 2010/10/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas: >> >> But of course it's allowed to make mistakes in Lojban! How could it >> not be? The only people who make no mistakes are those that don't ever >> use the language. > > Well that was the rule, for years! No one was allowed to speak > Lojban. Not without weathering severe criticism, anyway! I've been around since 1990 or 1991. For all the time that I've been around= , speakers and writers of Lojban have been feted and lauded. Severe critici= sm was reserved only for those who either knowingly departed from the basel= ine or adhered to the baseline but violated usage conventions (by writing i= n a sui generis style). It's true that mistakes were invariably corrected, = but scrupulous and finicky correction of mistakes is not severe criticism. =20 > I hear it was even worse before I was involved, like the Loglan days. > I read something the other day about how everyone sent their attempts > at Loglan to JCB, and he just didn't send them on to anyone else > because he didn't think they were good enough, they were all just > hidden away, and like one person wrote a text and published it anyway > but JCB was furious! Is that really what it was like, oldbies? I've never been involved with Loglan, but I can certainly sympathisize with= the desire to suppress, or at least conceal, most usage. Maybe things have= improved, but at least for the duration of the 90s, Lojban usage was absol= utely execrable, comparable perhaps to the average Anglo schoolchild's comm= and of French (or whatever foreign language they learn at school). I am her= e measuring execrability by the distance and discrepancy between the meanin= g of what is said and the meaning that the speaker intends to communicate. = I guess xorlo has gone a long way to fixing a lot of this. But at any rate,= if almost your entire corpus of usage consists of the usage of incompetent= foreign-like speakers, I would have thought it should be deprecated rather= than worshipped, though everybody else in my day seemed to take the opposi= te view. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.