From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCvn4fmBBoEJ0odKQ@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 22 10:54:08 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P9LoZ-0003VI-HC; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:54:07 -0700 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20sf1583796gwj.16 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=muUC1rF4F4X9Xm3bwgS43u135LgGiZbkiQ07tLgZagc=; b=doaRNuUTpQs2R1fLiPE7chrB1bA4e4yl4fVzvLzblRrOzEuH41nkiPdRCxdgLcb3Rq L1moGe28nQ9dW2k6gL/MRnouBCTicjcVFSKa9MPiq51Ybi+D8ocgAYDI/kJeF103rifT gpvDA3ouVkEOBIq1WydhinkiM6w37EwnN7/Ro= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=6AEqzhHmLHt2xcCx2JdEZV8IojDMixTcnzZcVbqTD5ohwYy0JuZsLjFqx1buFLlh1g CdZQjnNR6P4kO2xzHTaFu4/L6NY1KD7uJfPcXs0S6AEGRlHavRS6PY+wJjpKPfP12OUw 9dhGl5UzXgpY2O5La+wlyNSm6S5tKqzvOuT0s= Received: by 10.101.58.5 with SMTP id l5mr131451ank.61.1287770031616; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.231.3 with SMTP id d3ls1154057anh.7.p; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.126.13 with SMTP id y13mr1257109anc.17.1287770030781; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.126.13 with SMTP id y13mr1257107anc.17.1287770030753; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gw0-f53.google.com (mail-gw0-f53.google.com [74.125.83.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id s31si1219620yhc.14.2010.10.22.10.53.49; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.53; Received: by gwb1 with SMTP id 1so1546241gwb.26 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.214.10 with SMTP id gy10mr2311275icb.370.1287770029563; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.14 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 10:53:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 13:53:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] mistakes From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf301d43b22a1efc0493385330 --20cf301d43b22a1efc0493385330 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I get what you're saying. It seems like conversations often form a pattern like: jbonintadni: how do I say X? Would it be "ko'a broda ko'e"? jbocertu .abu: Well, you could do that, but it should be "ko'a be lo co'e"= . jbocertu .by: what? No no, ko'a be lo co'e would make blah blah. He wants ko'a pe lo nu do'e da poi co'e jbocertu .abu: no, you're off, that doesn't even parse in jbofi'e jbocertu .cy: yeah but jbofi'e uses the peg grammar so it's no valid. I agree with .abu, but I would choose a different broda ... jbocertu .vy: So THAT is why molusks are a different class from smani an= d {lo badna} is not an apricot. ... jbonintadni: ummm nevermind, I'm gonna go learn esparanto. bye. Though often times this last message is never sent, it's just implied by th= e fact that they are never heard from again. Does this experience jive with anybody other than myself? On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote= : > 2010/10/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > > > > What rule? When? I've been speaking Lojban since a couple of weeks > > after I started learning it, and nobody has ever told me I couldn't do > > it. And of course I have made my good share of mistakes. > > > > I guess the difference between "severe criticism" and "helpful > > corrections" has to do as much with the giver as with the receiver. > > Not everybody is always extremely polite, and some people are too > > thin-skinned, what can you do? > > Well for you, and logically by process of elimination everyone who's > succeeded in learning Lojban and joining our little community, the > criticism was not enough to discourage you. To many many people, such > as many beginning students (and some accomplished speakers) that I > correspond with privately because they don't want to subject their > attempts to the treatment they'd receive on these lists, or such as > (se'o) myself when I was first studying, it's more than enough stress > to keep them from persisting. Withering criticism or impracticality > alone are enough to keep most people from an activity; the combination > of both has been enough to keep Lojbanistan a very quiet place. I > don't think it's an entirely bad thing, as our stern attitude towards > any lazy drifting backwards into established habits has allowed us to > create and explore a very unique language. But it's something we > ought to be honest and aware of about the history of our language and > the nature of our community. In the history of our language, and to > some extent to this day (except of course on Hedwig), you cannot > attempt to speak Lojban unless you are willing and able to be told > very directly that you have failed. > > mi'e .telselkik. mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf301d43b22a1efc0493385330 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I get what you're saying. =A0It seems like conversations often form a p= attern like:

jbonintadni: =A0 =A0 how do I say X? =A0Would it = be "ko'a broda ko'e"?
jbocertu .abu: =A0Well, y= ou could do that, but it should be "ko'a be lo co'e".
jbocertu .by: =A0 =A0what? =A0No no, ko'a be lo co'e would mak= e blah blah. =A0He wants ko'a pe lo nu do'e da poi co'e
jbocertu .abu: =A0no, you're off, that doesn't even parse in jbo= fi'e
jbocertu .cy: =A0 =A0yeah but jbofi'e uses the peg grammar so it&#= 39;s no valid. =A0I agree with .abu, but I would choose a different broda
...
jbocertu .vy: =A0 =A0So THAT is why molusks are a di= fferent class from smani and {lo badna} is not an=A0apricot.=A0
...
jbonintadni: =A0 =A0 ummm nevermind, I'm gonna go le= arn esparanto. =A0bye.

Though often times this las= t message is never sent, it's just implied by the fact that they are ne= ver heard from again.

Does this experience jive with anybody other than mysel= f?

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Stel= a Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:
2010/10/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>
> What rule? When? I've been speaking Lojban since a coup= le of weeks
> after I started learning it, and nobody has ever told me I couldn'= t do
> it. And of course I have made my good share of mistakes.
>
> I guess the difference between "severe criticism" and "= helpful
> corrections" has to do as much with the giver as with the receive= r.
> Not everybody is always extremely polite, and some people are too
> thin-skinned, what can you do?

Well for you, and logically by process of elimination everyone who= 9;s
succeeded in learning Lojban and joining our little community, the
criticism was not enough to discourage you. =A0To many many people, such as many beginning students (and some accomplished speakers) that I
correspond with privately because they don't want to subject their
attempts to the treatment they'd receive on these lists, or such as
(se'o) myself when I was first studying, it's more than enough stre= ss
to keep them from persisting. =A0Withering criticism or impracticality
alone are enough to keep most people from an activity; the combination
of both has been enough to keep Lojbanistan a very quiet place. =A0I
don't think it's an entirely bad thing, as our stern attitude towar= ds
any lazy drifting backwards into established habits has allowed us to
create and explore a very unique language. =A0But it's something we
ought to be honest and aware of about the history of our language and
the nature of our community. =A0In the history of our language, and to
some extent to this day (except of course on Hedwig), you cannot
attempt to speak Lojban unless you are willing and able to be told
very directly that you have failed.

mi'e .telselkik. mu'o

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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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