From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRCRuIjmBBoEqw4Hug@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 22 16:20:04 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P9Qtx-0006WR-NZ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:20:02 -0700 Received: by ywk9 with SMTP id 9sf1050178ywk.16 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:19:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Gk8MwChowBPmQoTrjeii4tXRUdCbpoTiG0FL+PfRLNs=; b=tgxxSu7Ub7VUpTsPZWTzOAjRrz2kBabEKad/adDkWxF1FsnifPP0VdMgyPFYIKq2h4 a6gXgy6HktFDihhAA+ljGIjaBE9LMmYIdTddsGDfkoOk5Y9TiGyylQqQ42B5t12oZWlJ LffNUhTLuoRPVBQo1e0ScLsJm+Dso5zSFPbpQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=bgSrqdrWrJFbQrpwTDiTdh8P4NcOvvu4SaaeuA1gZBWkofXif2NCITAHwNSKYgv5T6 Mxg+MzIhRtZR/0xL8kzHmXJ2lsuDHkh+dm97NmzDM0yRi6S31iXBMi3oOw5ht9kz4jg7 mG0aLzXx3ODCJosvjOyUX8fFv66YrwKbKz3Z4= Received: by 10.90.30.3 with SMTP id d3mr250820agd.49.1287789585907; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.22.17 with SMTP id 17ls483511agv.4.p; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:19:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.90.25.16 with SMTP id 16mr243211agy.29.1287789585046; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 29g2000prb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2010 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 166.134.181.254 References: User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.11) Gecko/20101013 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.11,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <2e5916b3-0d1a-4a20-bcc9-a65336245874@29g2000prb.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: mistakes From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was kinda wondering what that was about. Thanks for answering! Robin has referred previously to an essay in one of his many rants, which I will link here. http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate Unfortunately, we need to keep bringing this sort of thing up, because it's very against our nature. ( It also wouldn't hurt to bring up the perfection game while we're at it... http://www.liveingreatness.com/the-core-protocols/perfection-game.html ) I'm officially (not derailing, but) switching the tracks on this conversation. =D Can we discuss ways to cooperate and make criticism less apparent? I would like everybody to do me a big favour. Even if you've read both of those (however many times), please read both of them one more time. Tell me what you think, tell me your ideas for how we can start implementing these ideas to make a more harmonious Lojbanistan. "How do things work on the Dark Side?" The respected leader speaks, and there comes a chorus of pure agreement: if there are any who harbor inward doubts, they keep them to themselves. So all the individual members of the audience see this atmosphere of pure agreement, and they feel more confident in the ideas presented. See the thread on "how do I say 'should' in Lojban?". This is probably one of the better examples of us cooperating. "Hey, you could say X." "Yeah, that's a good idea. You could also say Y or Z. You have to look at the underlying meaning of a lot of things to say what you want in Lojban." "Precisely! For example, in A, B, and C, the foo and bar..." and so on. We all came together and agreed on something; even if there was an underlying "Well, I wouldn't say that -exactly-, and this is..." attitude we didn't express it. "Imagine that you're at a conference, and the speaker gives a 30- minute talk. Afterward, people line up at the microphones for questions. The first questioner objects to the graph used in slide 14 using a logarithmic scale; he quotes Tufte on The Visual Display of Quantitative Information. The second questioner disputes a claim made in slide 3. The third questioner suggests an alternative hypothesis that seems to explain the same data..." THIS is one of our biggest fallacies. Read this and the examples presented in that section. Do it five more times. Now do it another six times. We need to be a culture of praise first and foremost. My suggestion is that, for every teacup of criticism, we provide at least a pint of praise. "Hey, you made an error here, it's supposed to be sedu'u." is fine, but follow it up with, "Your sentence structure otherwise was very understandable, your word selection was good, and I like the phrasing you used in the last bit." If you have a criticism, no matter how helpful, also say what was done -right-. Please don't let this be a rally of enthusiasm for a day that is forgotten the next. This needs to be engrained in the culture -now- or we're not going to learn. Make this a Lojbanist thing, an inherent part of our culture. Let's take lo si'o jbodau and put it at the bottom of the totem so we can put lo si'o jbozau at the top. mi'e la .lindar. noi jbozau gi'enai jbodau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.