From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxDL0YjmBBoEunDkEQ@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 22 17:14:25 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P9RkW-0001D1-Hm; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:24 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf1037306wyb.16 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:message-id:date :from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=4eAfqgqF2sMtYXd4BLfSLKgHazAW/9gG01y+NP6ngGQ=; b=RHf5A9oJ6K+PQc9cV9ev2R+AvujRyd3zTETCi8doyK0tAvomgfiYWjMeB1qfU/32sQ TFeY1MQoSv+vZiaTsm0IYgRhINPphL5czBtGO0zLc39E21YuDj6MI1NmS9X7WpnhSlD5 OlGEDP5ZVuu9EUgHNV78uXYojRlWLHqJBmtdk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Za56J0aLJl2U9Q5NIhGDg1ThO1otPkOBQgJjUBaqZAgp0v7/k9/X7nLwc2KZMDPGw5 zvRalUx31BNcf6ek4UvIluJ1bMfnnvCzDsOT6XXX1kwoqLWTXMej8qv0wBJoxzM4ORAW Ah+WA66LHVyzOiQfvavTnT4ilFk2PVeiAE0rI= Received: by 10.216.23.16 with SMTP id u16mr23832weu.9.1287792843178; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.208.4 with SMTP id p4ls1825519weo.2.p; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.85 with SMTP id d63mr175967wel.10.1287792841630; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.165.85 with SMTP id d63mr175966wel.10.1287792841599; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f172.google.com (mail-wy0-f172.google.com [74.125.82.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o31si1152007wej.2.2010.10.22.17.14.00; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.172; Received: by wyb28 with SMTP id 28so1446306wyb.17 for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.85 with SMTP id q63mr3303585wed.53.1287792840355; Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:14:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.68] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n40sm2345170weq.5.2010.10.22.17.13.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 22 Oct 2010 17:13:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4CC228C5.3060509@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2010 01:13:57 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.9) Gecko/20100915 Thunderbird/3.1.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mistakes References: <2e5916b3-0d1a-4a20-bcc9-a65336245874@29g2000prb.googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <2e5916b3-0d1a-4a20-bcc9-a65336245874@29g2000prb.googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lindar, On 23/10/2010 00:19: > http://lesswrong.com/lw/3h/why_our_kind_cant_cooperate > http://www.liveingreatness.com/the-core-protocols/perfection-game.html > > Can we discuss ways to cooperate and make criticism less apparent? > I would like everybody to do me a big favour. Even if you've read both > of those (however many times), please read both of them one more time. > Tell me what you think, tell me your ideas for how we can start > implementing these ideas to make a more harmonious Lojbanistan. I struggle to see the relevance of the Perfection Game. It could be relevan= t to the ongoing perfection of Lojban, if there were such a thing as the on= going perfection of Lojban, but there isn't. If what's meant is the achieve= ment of error-free Lojban usage, what sort of person would choose to learn = Lojban, with its focus on logic, explicit rules, and so forth, yet wish the= mistakes in their utterances to not be pointed out to them? As for "Why our kind can't cooperate", I think it's mostly bollocks. Of cou= rse totalitarianism is better at delivering concerted action than pluralism= is. But it's my impression that "the atheist/libertarian/technophile/sf-fa= n/early-adopter/programmer/etc crowd" is conspicuously interested in seekin= g optimal voting methods and consensus-forming techniques. Or take the trad= e union movement, very much a child of the Enlightenment, born both of rati= onalism and of passion, and achieving monumental feats of cooperation. Lojbanistan seems pretty harmonious to me, now only an occasional visitor. = But if it's not, what's wanted? Harmony for harmony's sake? Why? Why not ju= st freedom of expression coupled with mutual respect? Harmony for the sake = of greater goals? Which goals? Is there harmonious agreement on goals? IIRC, the Lojban-beginners list was set up as a forum for people to practic= e in a supportive nonthreatening environment free from overzealous highly t= echnical critiques of the sort I was guilty of so much of. But that was a s= pecially designated kindergarten environment -- a good place to have, but y= ou wouldn't want it to take over the whole country. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.