From lojban+bncCNTM-bHNDhCq2KjlBBoE7Va0qg@googlegroups.com Mon Oct 04 12:34:18 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P2qnd-00041c-92; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:34:18 -0700 Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10sf1026390qyk.16 for ; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:34:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:date:from:to:subject :in-reply-to:message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SebqmU+rAGmXmAA+2ik6ts5xpXhHq62CVVl4IB8+Bqk=; b=vJY+a7/+Y8oWuGyYEeTF7xXfwA204oS9l+d/PbIb0fUmodGaC2zoSF6w5B2Na6W/+R Lo1VK38eY4FIEunLo723yiRvAO+YdegOdxLPxOgO28VGtmCFLU/A+SWbAYODg51cZOna elFQ5hwCpBRJsvq/PzPifoLW/d5954v4crbKo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to :message-id:references:user-agent:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ti2izNS8rnT41fZDYC9J4/0t4ZqGNHNRz9ZE6O49q/uPTw36OK8FBtjd7wgnu/TBCp IWRDWCsi0hshMeHsskOdzhZf5E06c5I/TcodJUCF0KCCD6DeK8URu9/ll8mIC4aJ2nzg CePBCfwY7M4tXCMzZhRuIDQsAeWOLcMLRLkhU= Received: by 10.224.76.79 with SMTP id b15mr1041842qak.11.1286220842110; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:34:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.87.217 with SMTP id x25ls1563601qal.0.p; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.106.150 with SMTP id x22mr2692937qao.20.1286220841237; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.160.79 with SMTP id m15mr2784633ibx.6.1286219274253; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.160.79 with SMTP id m15mr2784442ibx.6.1286219246906; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.cec.wustl.edu (express.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.21.16]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id cn5si3207935ibb.2.2010.10.04.12.07.26; Mon, 04 Oct 2010 12:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) client-ip=128.252.21.16; Received: from grid.cec.wustl.edu (grid.cec.wustl.edu [128.252.20.97]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.cec.wustl.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3AFCC1E8052; Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:07:26 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2010 14:07:25 -0500 (CDT) From: "Adam D. Lopresto" To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] A pro-sumti for PU? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (LRH 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: adam@pubcrawler.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 128.252.21.16 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of adam@pubcrawler.org) smtp.mail=adam@pubcrawler.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, 3 Oct 2010, Ian Johnson wrote: > I suppose this may help. How do I say something equivalent to this, prefe= rably > with the same kind of extensibility, or can I not do so?: > I went to my house. .i mi kalma le zdani be mi > Define the time at which I did this to be A. Before A, I left the store. .i pu .a bu goi lo jai ca go'i mi cliva le zarci > Define the time at which I did this to be B. Before A but after > B I went to my friend's house. .i pu .a bu ba by. goi lo jai ca go'i mi klama le zdani be le pendo be mi A little long and awkward, but shorter and simpler than the English. > Thus unambigously establishing the sequence: > I left the store. Then I went to my friend's house. Then I went to my hou= se. > without actually needing to come up with the events in the sequence in th= e order > that they occurred. Granted, the idiomatic way to say this in English in = this > order would be: > I went to my house. Before I went to my house, I left the store. Before I= went > to my house but after I left the store, I went to my friend's house.=A0 > but we have {goi} to avoid this kind of thing already. >=20 > mu'o mi'e latros. >=20 > 2010/10/3 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > Can you explain the use of {ku} to do something other than > terminating LE? I > > haven't seen this before, outside of this case with PU, which I > had thought > > was somehow anomalous (which was one of the reasons I came up wit= h > this > > idea). >=20 > This is where CLL explains it: http://jbotcan.org/docs/cll/c9/s9.html >=20 > (Something weird happened to the html at the end of that page. I don't > know if anyone is maintaining it.) >=20 > "ca ku" and "ba ku" are probably the two most commonly used. >=20 > I have used "va'o nai ku" for "otherwise", i.e. something like "not > under (contextual conditions)". >=20 > "pu zu vu ku" has also been used as the start of fairy tales, as in > "once upon the time" or "long ago and far away". >=20 > There are probably other common uses of "tag KU" that I'm forgetting now. >=20 > > Some example sentences: > > ca ja'u mi klama lo zarci > > "I am going to a store at this moment" > > is the obvious example, which can apparently be done equivalently with > > {nau}: > > nau ku mi klama lo zarci >=20 > Right. >=20 > > The other example that {nau} can't do is using {ja'u} as an argument, > which > > I can't immediately think of a good example for, but: > > lo broda ku brode ja'u > > would be grammatical. This is more exact as a usage than {lo cabna be > dei}, > > in that it doesn't point to one or more things simultaneous with the > > utterance, but rather to the time that the utterance is made itself. >=20 > You can also use "lo tcika be dei" or "lo detri be dei" for a > different type of precision. >=20 > > It might be more useful, now that I think about it, to have a conversio= n > > from tenses to time sumti, so that one could point at the present momen= t > via > > a conversion from {nau}, as well as assign other times via conversion o= f > the > > other things in PU. >=20 > We have FIhO to convert a selbri into a tag. Since every tag (tenses > are one case of tags) can be thought of as "FIhO broda" for some > appropriate broda, all you need to do is figure out which broda > corresponds to the tag you want to convert, and then use "lo broda" as > the sumti. >=20 > > I haven't thought very hard about the grammar here (I > > don't even know if there's a selma'o for this) but (using {ja'u} since > it is > > actually fairly hard to find a free CV'V): > > .i ja'u pu zo'e [ku?] goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo > > zdani > > "At an earlier time (ko'a) I went to a store). After that, I {tense > relative > > to the present not specified} go to a house." >=20 > You could say: >=20 > =A0pu ku ca zo'e goi ko'a mi klama lo zarci .i ba ko'a mi klama lo zdani >=20 > Personally, I think Lojban already has way more cmavo than it should, > so I'm generally not in favor of adding new cmavo just because one can > think of possible uses for them. >=20 > I think it might not have been a bad idea for "nau" to be in selma'o > KOhA rather than being a tag, but I don't think adding things to KOhA > now is such a good idea, when I would like to remove about half the > things that are there already. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 > --=20 Adam Lopresto http://cec.wustl.edu/~adam/ O what a heaven is love! O what a hell! --Thomas Dekker --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.