From lojban+bncCIXj1IxCEMGlq-YEGgTkgMaT@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 29 06:57:37 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBpSW-0007Nc-Ko; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:36 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf1568848vws.16 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:received:message-id :x-ymail-osg:received:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0U2Lappe0NvzSSvztVtWYX2DXoSBIOoH98mLdzyLEV4=; b=CEioFzIbHeCewdxH3NpR4JPCMWNZvQAqoq660vv6faeN0Dmn1AC2PMbcHlIJT8vSx/ PJSrBrlDpihhevdYgNDCxrBl0MijLE91vdHHxFclO/IhI9/OlJJKy2QWt+31SNGiM+un AasriY1vLhW6ogFu7gBKc9rvRCb1WQAdaE0ws= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=J46Au3kVgCIvNtpzhBmplJEUGatrzY2DKLOzcagUbQvZTD9xmGQMwRQZHXn24ju2+b lIrrPvEsl0KngPPVEp963Qdty3/EDr8nI8dwONoEXntUm7Ste29ADjQoHOsnKJZPT5lZ skh1YFriY4xLQk2mRlB3baVcVIcsV0w8whxlY= Received: by 10.220.185.139 with SMTP id co11mr421335vcb.35.1288360641992; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:21 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.160.2 with SMTP id l2ls338491vcx.4.p; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.202.72 with SMTP id fd8mr194107vcb.21.1288360640728; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.202.72 with SMTP id fd8mr194106vcb.21.1288360640691; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm16.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm16.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.213]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id j32si307687vbp.2.2010.10.29.06.57.19; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.213 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of totus@rogers.com) client-ip=98.139.52.213; Received: from [98.139.52.192] by nm16.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2010 13:57:19 -0000 Received: from [98.139.52.128] by tm5.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2010 13:57:19 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1011.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2010 13:57:19 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 429486.97142.bm@omp1011.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 26613 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Oct 2010 13:57:19 -0000 Message-ID: <299457.18836.qm@web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 4VNIeUsVM1mLOF1XQoMQAShcRQ4Ms2McwDSkdaAIOFxMvLT wU36_iUfAxg_MEFpHdQgozDWFPSNBjBEKaLO9Ptdfa2HdwF_1SoARbQtESIe xHPwsE9EPiNNuRbJ_DQrX8.nRulTE4vvQf2y3_Sl2_e8aCQb5CuF9DH.sbb. PZAEGFGCZ1kRor5vZBcAk7F45yjl9.cGDVsOrI78u.jx2T3HUIH.FBYDS7mK .XXHRJEhmOPQjbSuvwzpOn.my.LDEb0tWwdeAH58sbO3Rs5ctPOZ43rxsTBw 0xzMpobj3IwCbp2xXQwQbsufdlYs1gC5U Received: from [99.240.58.72] by web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:19 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <760229.32777.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <322766.28658.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 06:57:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban] Fw: xagrai and superlatives To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: totus@rogers.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.213 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of totus@rogers.com) smtp.mail=totus@rogers.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@rogers.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 9:48 PM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > >> > >> ko'a brodyrai ko'e (ko'i ko'o ko'u ...) > >> =3D ko'a traji lo ka ce'u broda (ko'i ko'o ko'u ...) kei zi'o ko'e > > > > Sorry, I find this way of explaining it confusing.=A0 Can you relate th= e > > ko'a ko'e etc to the places in: > > > > t1=3Dx1 traji loka xamgu x2 x3 kei t3 t4 >=20 > What part do you find confusing? It's just ordinary Lojban. >=20 > The problem with your presentation is that it doesn't tell us anything > about the order of the arguments in the lujvo. Are we to assume that > they will appear in the lujvo in the same order as they appear in the > expansion? If so, then to make it equivalent to mine you would have to > write it as: >=20 > =A0 t1=3Dx1 traji fo t4 fe loka xamgu x2 x3 kei (t3=3Dzi'o) >=20 Let me take you through all the steps I went through in the development =A0(as for any development).=A0 That may reveal where the problem is. 1) Record the gismu used with all their places: x1 xamgu x2 x3 x1 (object/event) is good/beneficial/nice/[acceptable] for x2 by standard x= 3 =A0 t1 traji t2 t3 t4 t1 is superlative in property t2 (ka), the t3 extreme (ka; default ka zmadu= )=20 among set/range t4 2) Combine them into=A0the most simple=A0bridi possible t1 traji loka x1 xamgu x2 x3 kei t3 t4 3) Create the lujvo,=A0with the rafsi in reverse order of the order of the = gismu=20 in the bridi, leaving the places in the same order as in the bridi.=A0 Redu= ce the=20 places by combining those that have the same meaning. t1=3Dx1 xagrai x2 x3 t3 t4 4) Delete any places that don't make sense, or the least significant ones= =20 if there are too many. t1=3Dx1 xagrai x2 x3 t3 t4 (no change here) 5) Now,=A0EITHER (as some lojbanists would have it) leave this as the final= =20 lujvo,=20 t1=3Dx1 xagrai x2 x3 t3 t4 (no change again) OR=A0(as others would have it), shift the remaining places so that they are= =20 in the order of there most common usage. t1=3Dx1 xagrai t4 x2 x3 t3 My original question concerned point 5).=A0 I wanted to know if there was a= ny=20 concensus as to the best approach.=A0 If the responses that came from you,= =20 geyspa and Adam represent community , then=A0I understand the second=20 approach in point 5) is the favoured one. So my first question is: Assuming that both approoaches are valid, is there= =20 community concensus (or a clear majority) that this second approach (shift= =20 =A0places) to refelct usage)=A0is the best one?=A0For whatever reasons. My second question was:=A0Does the jbovlaste lujvo definition represent som= e=20 acceptable or popular third approach? t1=3Dx1 is optimal in property t2 of extremity t3 among range t4. totus --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.