From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDZsqzlBBoEBLNgrw@googlegroups.com Tue Oct 05 05:26:24 2010 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1P36b2-0008Rg-9t; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:26:24 -0700 Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10sf3084406qyk.16 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:26:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=xZhymWsM9lUHf0q4l56FRh6cldUJ2oOD3a8BUcjkHJM=; b=s+aLaKSNcz3vaZil+XGotdrut2lT9TXRPjR2o0hUipoHnrkKNjGegxn/pc0jyaaKja HyTYVZychaxwVGi9vErbq+PmT7PN2mZM3qYlkRggai+0Tqrd9a2Hd/5V+p0wPekXdAWz wtH3t6ROaM/zKchmPlXJTZjnOAjH251C10LaU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=7FQae8l4KqHtwtatrc6oJtlAhlFRR61AGoK/MOYi9LWNo4f6bzYwAhzRbSvW6+S/EN ofi4cMorTbNBcq1ZOuFYWeLKM8SjmkrUXBde2AwtljlrC59BZ4r3paem6v7bUEk5IHXk 3dC+W2MvEAg6Db7un8m/GQbeJW7SW3SP1e6CA= Received: by 10.224.76.3 with SMTP id a3mr17038qak.20.1286281561675; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:26:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.58.228 with SMTP id i36ls1789881qah.4.p; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.67.195 with SMTP id s3mr55496qai.14.1286281560752; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.67.195 with SMTP id s3mr55495qai.14.1286281560681; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f171.google.com (mail-qy0-f171.google.com [209.85.216.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y27si3477026qce.6.2010.10.05.05.25.59; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.171; Received: by qyk7 with SMTP id 7so175146qyk.2 for ; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:25:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.84.139 with SMTP id j11mr8324108qcl.98.1286281559441; Tue, 05 Oct 2010 05:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.85.3 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Oct 2010 05:25:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201010011823.25227.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4CA76670.50601@lojban.org> Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2010 08:25:59 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] la za'e filjvocedra (The Age of Easy Lujvo) From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016364edb9c6e823d0491ddc358 --0016364edb9c6e823d0491ddc358 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/10/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Robert LeChevalier > wrote: > > > > I think that there is a difference between mutce/milxe and zmadu/mleca > > Of course there's a semantic difference, but are they structurally > different enough that they will use different paradigms for making > lujvo? > > > I can say that x is bigger than y, without necessarily wishing to claim > that > > x in big in an absolute sense. The essence of the claim is the relativ= e > > comparison. > > You can only compare two things in the "ka broda" dimension if the two > things (or at the very least one of them) has some measure in that > dimension. If neither of the two has any "ka broda", then it doesn't > make sense to say that one of them has more of it than the other. > > Now, Lojban doesn't really have a very proper word for "size", but > when we use "lo ka barda" for it we are assuming that the two things > compared have at least a minimum amount of it. No matter how small > they are, they still must have some "ka barda" in order to say that > one has more of it than the other. > > > For mutce and milxe, the property being compared is the essential claim= , > and > > the mutce and milxe are adjectivally modifying that property (which is > not > > normally the case with zmadu/mleca). > > "Adjectivally modifying" does not apply to Lojban. If you are saying > that when you say "mutce barda" you are thinking of something other > that "mutce lo ka barda", then please explain in Lojban what it is > that you are thinking of, because I don't really understand the > distinction you want to make. > > > traji seems like it could go either way, with the essence either being > the > > extremeness, the main property being modified by an adjectival > extremeness. > > I tend to use the former, because the latter seems to me more of a > "mutce > > traji" as the adjective modifying the basic property. But I am willing = to > > concede that this may be colored by my English-based views of the words= . > > It seems as if you were saying that in "ko'a mutce lo ka broda" you > were somehow assigning brodaness to ko'a less essentially than in > "ko'a ckaji lo ka broda" or in "ko'a broda". Is that what you are > saying? > > > Especially since traji can be used for both extremes of a scale, it > seems > > that any systematic usage should reflect that option, and not assume th= at > it > > means "most" > > Those who accept that strange definition of "traji" will be in trouble > whenever they want to use "traji", but so far I don't remember anyone > actually paying any attention to the x3 slot. Everyone seems to use it > with the sensible meaning of "x1 has more of property x2 than anyone > else among x4". But this issue doesn't really affect the question of > whether it's used as a prefix or as a suffix. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > I happen to agree with xorxes (yeah, one of those rare times :-) ) that brodytce is preferable to tcebroda and while the underlying tanru can be thought of as either "mutce broda" or "broda mutce" it cannot be denied tha= t expanded out, what is really being said is x1 mutce lo ka broda kei. (So really, broda mutce is really more proper, but I admit as an English speaker, I'm more likely to invert it). And this is the point -- with most lujvo where the x2 of the full expansion of the underlying tanru is (an abstraction involving) the seltau and the selbri being the tertau, we make the lujvo in the order of {seltau,tertau}, as well we should, since the lujvo is a type of {tertau}. Ex. mrobi'o (<- morsi binxo <- binxo lo morsi), jungau (<- djuno gasnu <- gasnu lo nu x2 djuno), larfi'i (<- larcu finti <- finti x2 noi lo larcu), etc. so I see no reason to brea= k that pattern with mutce. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0016364edb9c6e823d0491ddc358 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2010/10/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <= ;jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Robert LeChevalier <lojbab@lojban.org> wrote:
>=
> I think that there is a difference between mutce/milxe and zmadu/m= leca

Of course there's a semantic difference, but are they structu= rally
different enough that they will use different paradigms for making=
lujvo?

> I can say that x is bigger than y, without neces= sarily wishing to claim that
> x in big in an absolute sense. =A0The = essence of the claim is the relative
> comparison.

You c= an only compare two things in the "ka broda" dimension if the two=
things (or at the very least one of them) has some measure in that
dimen= sion. If neither of the two has any "ka broda", then it doesn'= ;t
make sense to say that one of them has more of it than the other.

Now, Lojban doesn't really have a very proper word for "size&q= uot;, but
when we use "lo ka barda" for it we are assuming tha= t the two things
compared have at least a minimum amount of it. No matte= r how small
they are, they still must have some "ka barda" in order to say th= at
one has more of it than the other.

> For mutce and milxe, the property being compared= is the essential claim, and
> the mutce and milxe are adjectivally m= odifying that property (which is not
> normally the case with zmadu/m= leca).

"Adjectivally modifying" does not apply to Lojban. If y= ou are saying
that when you say "mutce barda" you are thinking= of something other
that "mutce lo ka barda", then please expl= ain in Lojban what it is
that you are thinking of, because I don't really understand the
dist= inction you want to make.

> traji seems like it could go either way, with th= e essence either being the
> extremeness, the main property being mod= ified by an adjectival extremeness.
> =A0I tend to use the former, be= cause the latter seems to me more of a "mutce
> traji" as the adjective modifying the basic property. But I am wi= lling to
> concede that this may be colored by my English-based views= of the words.

It seems as if you were saying that in "ko= 'a mutce lo ka broda" you
were somehow assigning brodaness to ko'a less essentially than in
&q= uot;ko'a ckaji lo ka broda" or in "ko'a broda". Is t= hat what you are
saying?

> =A0Especially since traji can be used for both e= xtremes of a scale, it seems
> that any systematic usage should refle= ct that option, and not assume that it
> means "most"
Those who accept that strange definition of "traji" will be= in trouble
whenever they want to use "traji", but so far I do= n't remember anyone
actually paying any attention to the x3 slot. Ev= eryone seems to use it
with the sensible meaning of "x1 has more of property x2 than anyoneelse among x4". But this issue doesn't really affect the questio= n of
whether it's used as a prefix or as a suffix.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=A0 I happen to agree with xorxes (yeah, one of those rare times :-) )= that brodytce is preferable to tcebroda and while the underlying tanru can= be thought of as either "mutce broda"=A0or "broda mutce&quo= t;=A0it cannot be denied that expanded out, what is really being said=A0is = x1 mutce lo ka broda kei.=A0 (So really, broda mutce is really more proper,= but I admit as an English speaker, I'm more likely to invert it).=A0 A= nd this is the point -- with most lujvo=A0where the =A0x2 of the=A0full exp= ansion=A0of the underlying tanru is=A0(an abstraction involving) the seltau= and the selbri being the tertau, we make the lujvo in the order of=A0{selt= au,tertau}, as well we should, since=A0the=A0lujvo is =A0a type of {tertau}= .=A0 Ex. mrobi'o (<- morsi binxo <- binxo lo morsi), jungau (<= -=A0djuno gasnu <- gasnu lo nu x2 djuno), larfi'i (<- larcu finti= <- finti x2 noi lo larcu), etc. =A0so I see no reason to break that pat= tern with mutce.=A0=A0=A0
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016364edb9c6e823d0491ddc358--