From lojban+bncCIXj1IxCEKiTrOYEGgRYc-O1@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 29 10:51:56 2010 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBt7E-0002Rq-TX; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:55 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf3500186qwh.16 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:received:message-id :x-ymail-osg:received:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BdZh55+sehUQ2qOe8r1Jd2VYwxCLY6Nir4FLWVcU/K8=; b=s+SRLM8D2EP6YeZudQClGtZpA+4pethwIrE3PIoPN4naU4eOfoCaZPmq4H3tvBjjz6 yOt9Bpn5DdwsVHNdVjV15Nw+fVhCngCx6M9WJexVU5hiLiZYoJ3lvKruApDlr4+fl35L 4JGmwOSTJrVPX+La4OJnLUTJhbDGDqBvOJ5pk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=yH1Z6woH5M3imAy3owTjAJJU6RiFTevRfDQOAncRJc9hQVhfcV+UmX3XSli89LhfUG C/2kvlZ9oeck4UOE5uhojiTUD/7XjJyPbiBKA7h/mlNbNmsUsfImbZyfm7zfR17Tb8t3 qzJjs3hZPmu6a7DI8LrR86MgWIjzQcqBrKOWU= Received: by 10.229.4.41 with SMTP id 41mr765446qcp.33.1288374696871; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.69.77 with SMTP id y13ls1348005qci.3.p; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.247.200 with SMTP id md8mr1411071qcb.5.1288374696297; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.247.200 with SMTP id md8mr1411070qcb.5.1288374696258; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm9.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (nm9.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.139.52.206]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id y15si1464684qce.3.2010.10.29.10.51.35; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.206 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of totus@rogers.com) client-ip=98.139.52.206; Received: from [98.139.52.189] by nm9.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2010 17:51:35 -0000 Received: from [98.139.52.155] by tm2.bullet.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2010 17:51:35 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1038.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Oct 2010 17:51:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 86412.64790.bm@omp1038.mail.ac4.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 12851 invoked by uid 60001); 29 Oct 2010 17:51:35 -0000 Message-ID: <980337.4725.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: xYGJVLkVM1mXH5HlYTNBghsamOBD5iApUogxDcQCwQiE94N kK9qysRT9_baRo8NLRnaSJIOBTogl28jqSnQsKWpP580g9avsC_v2RAYuB1. zgdDF1liqbRH6wZ9oA.LH00jjFgJ9bDuLXzxjbA65_fN9oiRczg64o5.2qOQ CeBTlzktKDrgV7GkzEfsTa4LnMtGq0NE_1.URuNsjNyrV5bGwL3aXVpNoj8m ntXw513JCf._Osu4uli.RIPWU_LGAO0DG705CuF.cf4p2c4bS7J_Ox4FNfF8 mpuuVW0IbOz4WI_OEvJPJHSzIlSL4rnxZ Received: from [99.240.58.72] by web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:34 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <760229.32777.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <322766.28658.qm@web88005.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <299457.18836.qm@web88001.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 10:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "A. PIEKARSKI" Subject: Re: [lojban] Fw: xagrai and superlatives To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: totus@rogers.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 98.139.52.206 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of totus@rogers.com) smtp.mail=totus@rogers.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@rogers.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 10:57 AM, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > >> > > Let me take you through all the steps I went through in the development > > =A0(as for any development).=A0 That may reveal where the problem is. > > > > 1) Record the gismu used with all their places: >=20 > Fine. >=20 > > 2) Combine them into=A0the most simple=A0bridi possible >=20 > Fine. >=20 > > 3) Create the lujvo,=A0with the rafsi in reverse order of the order of = the=20 >gismu > > in the bridi, leaving the places in the same order as in the bridi. >=20 > You don't distinguish subordinate bridi places from main bridi places? I admit I have not done so in the past - and nobody pointed out the error= =20 of my ways until now.=A0 So point 3) would now be: 3) Create the lujvo,=A0with the rafsi in reverse order of the order of the = gismu=20 in the bridi, leaving the places in the same order as in the bridi, but wit= h=20 subordinate=20 bridi places at the end.=A0 Reduce the places by combining those that have = the=20 same meaning. from:=A0=A0=A0 t1 traji loka x1 xamgu x2 x3 kei t3 t4 to:=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0 t1=3Dx1 xagrai t3 t4=A0x2 x3 >=20 > > 4) Delete any places that don't make sense, or the least significant on= es > > if there are too many. >=20 > This is already done in step 2, with "zi'o". Use of "zi'o" suggests > that the gismu was bloated in the first place. Obviously, there will be disagreements as to which places can be deleted. I believe some purists may argue that t3 should be kept because, although= =20 it is 'bloated', it is not 'nonsense'.=A0 In other words we need to use the= gismu=20 as they currently are, not as we would like them to be. '>=20 > > 5) Now,=A0EITHER (as some lojbanists would have it) leave this as the f= inal > > lujvo, =A0t1=3Dx1 xagrai t3 t4=A0x2 x3 (with or without t3) > > > > OR=A0(as others would have it), shift the remaining places so that they= are > > in the order of there most common usage. > > > > My original question concerned point 5).=A0 I wanted to know if there w= as any > > concensus as to the best approach. >=20 > The usual order is main component first, then the rest. >=20 So if I understand you, taking into account your disapproval of t3, and=20 corrections=20 to point 3), {xagrai} should be t1=3Dx1 xagrai t4=A0x2 x3=A0=A0 t1=3Dx1 is the best among t4 for x2 by standard x3 which certainly is not the jbovlaste entry: t1=3Dx1 is optimal in property t2 of extremity t3 among range t4. totus --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.