From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDD06zmBBoE1T-BKQ@googlegroups.com Fri Oct 29 13:08:52 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PBvFo-00077Q-1U; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:52 -0700 Received: by yxe42 with SMTP id 42sf4941034yxe.16 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=u0asPU6xiUBUNY/14ShWofatwjr48J+9IPIp6qqlSV4=; b=wVl7goRdeVlaf7lF+KVCmx1X1XnntFvCTFevRnKL0VkkrJ//JY3mkzgGmzXOXkeY+E Nn3V/qTtNCzkEuUOjblRPxROrEyfATisWIFoMbA39XiOV3BR8oFyA/YIEQk5xbtcTeay ZERhgNoDR9NTcITqFhNGONEN1IJwbjl3hq3Dc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=UalIiyOB/KsJFA5BH2Eqzzwz2b5TUI9UP9NedyOCGri9/6gM8lohWpOFqiftA0GQu6 f7HoCatTn9GP6h3zacjrpx2NJG/JwSJC2JDL1AtqGJaDtQYU31bHC/0JsB9NoyFeokr8 7+Q7u4gJ60lPx4ET5MfL52S+0EwTqypSZ/i6w= Received: by 10.91.195.14 with SMTP id x14mr381000agp.15.1288382915952; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.39.10 with SMTP id d10ls3188999ibe.3.p; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.37.194 with SMTP id y2mr3385ibd.12.1288382914682; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.37.194 with SMTP id y2mr3383ibd.12.1288382914641; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f174.google.com (mail-iw0-f174.google.com [209.85.214.174]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id bm7si3560524ibb.2.2010.10.29.13.08.33; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.174; Received: by iwn10 with SMTP id 10so4376179iwn.33 for ; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.145.140 with SMTP id d12mr19892ibv.83.1288382913483; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.14 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Oct 2010 13:08:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20101029195744.GJ47249@alice.local> References: <20101029194001.GI47249@alice.local> <20101029195744.GJ47249@alice.local> Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 16:08:33 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] questions about peg grammar From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.174 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e642d340e495010493c70594 --0016e642d340e495010493c70594 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 yeah, sorry, I was just using comma separated because it was clearer to me. And yes, I figured that !animals wouldn't change the actual class of "animals". Only that it effects how "animals" is "used" by the current rule (i.e. excluding from that class anything that was excluded from class). Well this makes me feel better. I began to realize that the only way to deal with buffer vowels properly would be a recursive method that tries all possible combinations of valid rafsi and continues down those paths until it finds the only path that doesn't end with weird things (like my earlier weird lujvo that ended with a "ro ci"). It sounds like what I am trying to do is something similar to what you were talking about in the other thread. On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:57 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > Presuming your ',' character is the ordered-choice predicate (the '/' > in the Lojban grammar) you're totally right. > > Your description does not work if you're talking about the sequence > predicate, because the predicate-not operator is working on the > input stream, rather than directly modifying the rules, which is how > you're articulating how it works in your description. > > If that doesn't make sense I'll write up an example, but for your > example below you've understood the correct behavior. > > -Alan > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 03:51:11PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > > oh, interesting. So the !fuhivla, !gismu, and the rest will > effectively > > modify what "bridi-core" is such that a bridi-core (in the context of > a > > lujvo) will not have fuivla, gismu, or cmavo in it. > > Interesting. So if I have > > stuff <- !dogs !tabby animal > > animal <- dogs, cats, mice > > cats <- barn-cat, tabby > > then "stuff" will be a class of things that contains "barn-cat and > mice". > > Is this right? > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:40 PM, .alyn.post. > > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 03:36:09PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > Ok, so I'm trying to get a feel for how the peg grammar handles > lujvo > > so > > > that I can make my parser be as close to the real deal as possible > > (i.e. > > > not a sloppy hack). I have a question though. I think the relevant > > section > > > that I want to understand is the following, correct? > > > > > > ;----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > lujvo <- !gismu !fuhivla !cmavo initial-rafsi* brivla-core > > > brivla-core <- fuhivla / gismu / CVV-final-rafsi / > > stressed-initial-rafsi > > > short-final-rafsi > > > stressed-initial-rafsi <- stressed-extended-rafsi / > stressed-y-rafsi / > > > stressed-y-less-rafsi > > > initial-rafsi <- extended-rafsi / y-rafsi / !any-extended-rafsi > > > y-less-rafsi > > > any-extended-rafsi <- fuhivla / extended-rafsi / > > stressed-extended-rafsi > > > > > > ;----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > Now, I may be reading this incorrectly, but wouldn't this mean > that an > > > initial rafsi followed by a fuhivla would be considered a lujvo? > i.e. > > > {bracidrspageti}? > > > > > > > This is a bit tricky. > > > > Look at the early part of the lujvo definition, and you can see > > there is a predicate-not operation saying "it can't have a fuhivla" > > (That is the !fuhivla). > > > > So when the brivla-core matches, even through brivla-core is capable > > of having a fuhivla, it won't ever have one in this case, because > > the earlier predicate-not operation in the lujvo nonterminal won't > let > > one be there. > > > > -Alan > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [2]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [3]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > [4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 3. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 4. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e642d340e495010493c70594 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yeah, sorry, I was just using comma=A0separated=A0because it was clearer to= me. =A0And yes, I figured that !animals wouldn't change the actual cla= ss of "animals". =A0Only that it effects how "animals" = is "used" by the current rule (i.e. excluding from that class any= thing that was excluded from <this> class).

Well this makes me feel better. =A0I began to realize that t= he only way to deal with buffer vowels properly would be a recursive method= that tries all possible combinations of valid rafsi and continues down tho= se paths until it finds the only path that doesn't end with weird thing= s (like my earlier weird lujvo that ended with a "ro ci").

It sounds like what I am trying to do is something simi= lar to what you were talking about in the other thread.

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:57 PM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodock= ikumazvati.org> wrote:
Presuming your ',' character is the= ordered-choice predicate (the '/'
in the Lojban grammar) you're totally right.

Your description does not work if you're talking about the sequence
predicate, because the predicate-not operator is working on the
input stream, rather than directly modifying the rules, which is how
you're articulating how it works in your description.

If that doesn't make sense I'll write up an example, but for your example below you've understood the correct behavior.

-Alan

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 03:51:11PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> =A0 =A0oh, interesting. So the !fuhivla, !gismu, and the rest will eff= ectively
> =A0 =A0modify what "bridi-core" is such that a bridi-core (i= n the context of a
> =A0 =A0lujvo) will not have fuivla, gismu, or cmavo in it.
> =A0 =A0Interesting. So if I have
> =A0 =A0stuff <- !dogs !tabby animal
> =A0 =A0animal <- dogs, cats, mice
> =A0 =A0cats <- barn-cat, tabby
> =A0 =A0then "stuff" will be a class of things that contains = "barn-cat and mice".
> =A0 =A0Is this right?
> =A0 =A0On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 3:40 PM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wr= ote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 03:36:09PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote= :
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Ok, so I'm trying to get a feel for how the peg gr= ammar handles lujvo
> =A0 =A0 =A0so
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that I can make my parser be as close to the real deal= as possible
> =A0 =A0 =A0(i.e.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> not a sloppy hack). I have a question though. I think = the relevant
> =A0 =A0 =A0section
> =A0 =A0 =A0> that I want to understand is the following, correct? > =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0;----------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
> =A0 =A0 =A0> lujvo <- !gismu !fuhivla !cmavo initial-rafsi* briv= la-core
> =A0 =A0 =A0> brivla-core <- fuhivla / gismu / CVV-final-rafsi /<= br> > =A0 =A0 =A0stressed-initial-rafsi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> short-final-rafsi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> stressed-initial-rafsi <- stressed-extended-rafsi /= stressed-y-rafsi /
> =A0 =A0 =A0> stressed-y-less-rafsi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> initial-rafsi <- extended-rafsi / y-rafsi / !any-ex= tended-rafsi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> y-less-rafsi
> =A0 =A0 =A0> any-extended-rafsi <- fuhivla / extended-rafsi / > =A0 =A0 =A0stressed-extended-rafsi
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0;----------------------------------------------------------= ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Now, I may be reading this incorrectly, but wouldn'= ;t this mean that an
> =A0 =A0 =A0> initial rafsi followed by a fuhivla would be considere= d a lujvo? i.e.
> =A0 =A0 =A0> {bracidrspageti}?
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0This is a bit tricky.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Look at the early part of the lujvo definition, and you can= see
> =A0 =A0 =A0there is a predicate-not operation saying "it can'= t have a fuhivla"
> =A0 =A0 =A0(That is the !fuhivla).
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0So when the brivla-core matches, even through brivla-core i= s capable
> =A0 =A0 =A0of having a fuhivla, it won't ever have one in this cas= e, because
> =A0 =A0 =A0the earlier predicate-not operation in the lujvo nontermina= l won't let
> =A0 =A0 =A0one be there.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0-Alan
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [2]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send emai= l to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[3]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0 =A0[4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups
> =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 =A01. mailto:aly= n.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A02. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A04. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

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