From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDk1rDmBBoEZFUvog@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 30 07:28:05 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCCPY-00031p-Fy; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:28:04 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf2300545wyb.16 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=O57NOQLllm28ubUCzZoFRCyPOMxZwNdYPccFE5+xLRY=; b=SQErtSUBLDlt/w3sGEVbX4hbm3wfvCgsAnPbZpzjKU6BvSi/PsAvMnZMMoKb3UoEyv NmL0oIKhKtfO3wzRh/oIlTpx8UonrRvTzpYM/1CxToUV3xn4tSbDdev5xIHt3N8Igzwk PkZ0cpUEWTVKzrMn1eROVWAEzycx60xxFABKI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=NMDAFnlWPaY5qPU1Pl/s9IlsIleMeDUJ955XfbpYAHrhhOoAi3/afqBb0St8UO1eBS 5vIl35hikyZ2iMvFr+V5XBNrrMfAHA8vMv+l83EUc0p91MqdK0VHGTdlVrJjIHetr7OQ iUfsARnyp8+yTzxjxmbPtcDEzWZxapgp6757o= Received: by 10.216.237.73 with SMTP id x51mr1982759weq.19.1288448868054; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.242.202 with SMTP id i52ls1703924wer.0.p; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.68.69 with SMTP id k47mr704724wed.3.1288448866899; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.68.69 with SMTP id k47mr704723wed.3.1288448866873; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f173.google.com (mail-wy0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o31si1147469wej.2.2010.10.30.07.27.45; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; Received: by mail-wy0-f173.google.com with SMTP id 26so4130782wyj.32 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.133.140 with SMTP id f12mr834500wbt.139.1288448865543; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:27:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20101027160630.GD43996@alice.local> <2b585d63-1def-4797-8c75-453e66cac098@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <201010280843.15900.jezuch@interia.pl> <2327e11e-c10a-42d4-9e8f-bc3841fd75d9@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <20101028171348.GB45294@alice.local> <73ebebef-27b3-4093-8a32-1a66115a02c0@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:27:45 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (I'm moving this interesting topic from beginners to the main lojban list so as not to scare away the newbies.) On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Lindar wrote: > > xorxes: Sumti raising is sumti raising. There's no nitpicking or > arguing semantics about it. "Raising" is a term from linguistics that, like so many other terms from linguistics, is often misapplied in Lojban. If you really want to know what "raising" is, this is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) As the article says: "Not all languages have raising verbs; English is one that does." And Lojban is another language that does too. Or at least it has "raising selbri", if you don't like calling selbri "verbs". Examples of raising selbri in Lojban are simlu, mutce, milxe, cenba, all the measure words, in fact almost all the selbri that have a property place are "raising selbri", since they raise an argument from the subordinate property ka bridi into the main bridi. Other examples of potentially raising selbri are djuno, cilre, facki, jimpe, and all the others with a place structure involving "fact x2 about x3". The argument x3 can be raised from the subordinate clause in x2. This rarely happens however, because the raised argument is inconveniently located. Nobody really says: mi facki lo du'u sralo kei ko'a "I found out being Australian about her." "I found out about her being Australian." Instead of: mi facki lo du'u ko'a sralo "I found out that she is Australian." Raising is just not convenient in Lojban for these propositional attitude selbri. (Also, it is not clear why some of them have a raising place and others, like for example "birti", don't. Either all should have it or none, but Lojban place structures are so full of exceptions. But that's just an aside.) Yet another class of selbri that could be said to involve raising are the ones corresponding to what the wikipedia article calls "control verbs". These are selbri like troci, snada, fliba, zukte, kakne, and so on, where the x1 works semantically both as the first argument of the main verb but also as the (normally first) argument of the subordinate bridi in the x2. So in: mi troci lo nu bajra mi snada lo nu bajra mi zukte lo nu bajra mi kakne lo nu bajra and so on, the x1 of bajra is "raised" to the x1 position of the main selbri. > Wanting an apple for the purpose of eating > it is still sumti raising, because it's adding an implied concept of - > having-. That's what sumti raising is. =/ It is, in a sense, sumti raising, but not for the reason you give. Consider these: mi pilno lo mapku lo nu dasni mi nitcu lo mapku lo nu dasni mi djica lo mapku lo nu dasni "pilno", "nitcu" and "djica" all have basically the same place structure. (There may be others like them, for example "sazri.) Now, we could say that in those three examples, there is a double sumti raising, since the x1 of dasni is raised to the x1 of the main clause, and the x2 of dasni is raised to the x2 of the main clause. But there is nothing wrong with any of them! sumti raising is a normal part of the Lojban grammar. Some selbri just happen to have argument places for raised arguments. So what? Why this witch-hunt about the x2 of djica? Why doesn't anyone ever worry about the tens or maybe hundreds of other sumti raising places that the gismu list provides? And you didn't say what you think about "dunda lo plise". Do you object to that too, or do you wisely ignore the gismu list comment in that case? mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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