From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCqgbHmBBoEqfCEwQ@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 30 08:58:48 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCDpM-0001UI-Cu; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:48 -0700 Received: by yxe42 with SMTP id 42sf6398357yxe.16 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EEQMwK/yeoalbJegPh3HECBIEU38ve3mx/leiae+7Ck=; b=0yLRYtpyfdaD0R4q5AoxAFoPyC+8M7+RFPUzQS5HzwPbQT7NkeFyHp+3kVxic28DS5 /rxhaZn4SSmJtLiJ4gkOlqCdqouiUXO2XwHoQQbEJptkxcW1MySQfplvfJH6JkbSafMN KQB+dcUQEgyE7vHnNzq4Mif7bkG6azkD5PX88= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kZXTvl1djE34sUtE9oKC9u7csHAap2Xme5bZkVgDJxSX71JzBA/8iFdDvgCRH2qlIF WUyheM3qZdX5TMsKcheST/BHEJ7KcGem8QHtRU6Mmujq8UkE9ELHBedJMa03hBsmvl2h PEGBbec9Ae65+c/nBlAEDeUChfJAevKg0iQE8= Received: by 10.151.62.4 with SMTP id p4mr2061789ybk.72.1288454314224; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.1.11 with SMTP id 11ls2272165yba.0.p; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.8.5 with SMTP id l5mr4485776ybi.45.1288454313682; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.8.5 with SMTP id l5mr4485774ybi.45.1288454313644; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.122]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id s31si1189666yhc.14.2010.10.30.08.58.32; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.122; Received: (qmail 15168 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Oct 2010 15:58:32 -0000 Message-ID: <46808.14053.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: aaErQEQVM1numyM4SnUbVUCXUan8BGHtRTDXgt0c1.7.EJ1 EgmpJ0Q4tGKE6bHAItL3_kBq7vfCLInCzV4KaVqCMP.rKi4H1dai5yn5W8gp 6bxz8lNamsFlgjXh5xVq_0AwKLA1KIve2W28Rs5lYpr2pW94_fK6o..fGRko 9jrfitA9ThbjPXIy_8ZVB_D4WUycrlqPwJJy728TOBuVNaltA29ZQhMptUGf 1sZmZbowt7SDeziPk7_Q89.yS2kD8h5B1UyrjVqN52TLzX1OMQ5VNtQkGl0v UOL72LRz4fqHnMvE62F.7cbRWXGqW8XPdpI10mfy_VdI6zn5g3AlKuvaOeRA 5o24AKOr_7097YkCTBjisHzS.JT0vaE2y_9tqPYrYJvwqdNg- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:31 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <20101027160630.GD43996@alice.local> <2b585d63-1def-4797-8c75-453e66cac098@a37g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> <201010280843.15900.jezuch@interia.pl> <2327e11e-c10a-42d4-9e8f-bc3841fd75d9@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <20101028171348.GB45294@alice.local> <73ebebef-27b3-4093-8a32-1a66115a02c0@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 08:58:31 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.122 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Raising is always a risky business, because it appears to involve moving it= ems=20 from a subordinate, temporary universes of discourse into the main one. If= I=20 say "I want for me to ride a unicorn", say, I am not at all put off by the= =20 objection "There are no unicorns" because the unicorn I want is buried in a= pair=20 of worlds which pertain to two different counterfactual conditonals and so = have=20 nothing to the universe of present discourse. If I say, on the other hand= =20 (assuming English is something like a logical language :)), "I want a unico= rn=20 for me to ride", I seem to be saying that there are unicorns (in the presen= t=20 domain) and I want one of them to ride. The claim that there aren't any is = then=20 false, even though the interlocutor has believed it true and has not agreed= to=20 an expansion, as required by the rules of conversation. Indeed, his remark= =20 might well be a reminder that the universe of the dialog does not encompass= =20 unicorns (whatever may happen in wish-worlds and the like). Further, the ne= w=20 form implies that there is a unicorn I want to ride and that, even in the= =20 expanded domain, is false, since no one unicorn is singled out by my desire= , but=20 rather any one will do. There are other problems, about the laws of identi= ty=20 and the like that this move can give rise to. So, as a general rule, don't= =20 raise unless you are sure the referent of what you raise is already set up = to be=20 talked about. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 9:27:45 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra (I'm moving this interesting topic from beginners to the main lojban list so as not to scare away the newbies.) On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Lindar wrote: > > xorxes: Sumti raising is sumti raising. There's no nitpicking or > arguing semantics about it. "Raising" is a term from linguistics that, like so many other terms from linguistics, is often misapplied in Lojban. If you really want to know what "raising" is, this is a good place to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) As the article says: "Not all languages have raising verbs; English is one that does." And Lojban is another language that does too. Or at least it has "raising selbri", if you don't like calling selbri "verbs". Examples of raising selbri in Lojban are simlu, mutce, milxe, cenba, all the measure words, in fact almost all the selbri that have a property place are "raising selbri", since they raise an argument from the subordinate property ka bridi into the main bridi. Other examples of potentially raising selbri are djuno, cilre, facki, jimpe, and all the others with a place structure involving "fact x2 about x3". The argument x3 can be raised from the subordinate clause in x2. This rarely happens however, because the raised argument is inconveniently located. Nobody really says: mi facki lo du'u sralo kei ko'a "I found out being Australian about her." "I found out about her being Australian." Instead of: mi facki lo du'u ko'a sralo "I found out that she is Australian." Raising is just not convenient in Lojban for these propositional attitude selbri. (Also, it is not clear why some of them have a raising place and others, like for example "birti", don't. Either all should have it or none, but Lojban place structures are so full of exceptions. But that's just an aside.) Yet another class of selbri that could be said to involve raising are the ones corresponding to what the wikipedia article calls "control verbs". These are selbri like troci, snada, fliba, zukte, kakne, and so on, where the x1 works semantically both as the first argument of the main verb but also as the (normally first) argument of the subordinate bridi in the x2. So in: mi troci lo nu bajra mi snada lo nu bajra mi zukte lo nu bajra mi kakne lo nu bajra and so on, the x1 of bajra is "raised" to the x1 position of the main selbr= i. > Wanting an apple for the purpose of eating > it is still sumti raising, because it's adding an implied concept of - > having-. That's what sumti raising is. =3D/ It is, in a sense, sumti raising, but not for the reason you give. Consider these: mi pilno lo mapku lo nu dasni mi nitcu lo mapku lo nu dasni mi djica lo mapku lo nu dasni "pilno", "nitcu" and "djica" all have basically the same place structure. (There may be others like them, for example "sazri.) Now, we could say that in those three examples, there is a double sumti raising, since the x1 of dasni is raised to the x1 of the main clause, and the x2 of dasni is raised to the x2 of the main clause. But there is nothing wrong with any of them! sumti raising is a normal part of the Lojban grammar. Some selbri just happen to have argument places for raised arguments. So what? Why this witch-hunt about the x2 of djica? Why doesn't anyone ever worry about the tens or maybe hundreds of other sumti raising places that the gismu list provides? And you didn't say what you think about "dunda lo plise". Do you object to that too, or do you wisely ignore the gismu list comment in that case? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.