From lojban+bncCICntNPQBRCowbLmBBoEGrTpCQ@googlegroups.com Sat Oct 30 15:48:21 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCKDi-0004zg-V1; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:21 -0700 Received: by gxk28 with SMTP id 28sf6889710gxk.16 for ; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:mime-version :received:received:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references:user-agent :x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OycyjAvIv0BAXiRQqfkZSuyQ4CmKaWz6GtYlAOankKk=; b=eQ22UfdXIdgoBag2LHD4+H6Wb7IGzsPW3de6VRvoGM12gxiVVfEviPutEPWtBytABV cvU50kia/FKCK0BgcOnLGnoaEb6zE2DVsuBy3ApAFDHbO4D64haa/1DumE1Emu1s8ZA7 fiyYl4XvfThbOICx5V/b28kK1RAeLUv1RSQ+0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=vGimnh8pBLSmdaI+kOG7CRMt6lHldHvpTIGqJRDRbFFP6flZlfz13TpdyuEiY3VxWf lQHXAgmP37Ps/1kLXS40pn9r7ktQ3EQ7+95gPHev7bk7TH1rGU2cyO+r6I9xH5ix1a07 V06TvR25U/3qcoaA7z5Pefw8AI2Mhqmy/RpII= Received: by 10.150.167.3 with SMTP id p3mr2022608ybe.23.1288478888706; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.1.11 with SMTP id 11ls2423698yba.0.p; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.171.11 with SMTP id t11mr2053011ybe.5.1288478887380; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by r14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 15:48:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 32.172.200.165 References: <201010280843.15900.jezuch@interia.pl> <2327e11e-c10a-42d4-9e8f-bc3841fd75d9@j33g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> <20101028171348.GB45294@alice.local> <73ebebef-27b3-4093-8a32-1a66115a02c0@e14g2000yqe.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.12) Gecko/20101027 Ubuntu/10.04 (lucid) Firefox/3.6.12,gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <5bb8fba6-a512-4633-a337-be1c7008a1d5@r14g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: Lindar To: lojban X-Original-Sender: lindarthebard@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Other examples of potentially raising selbri are djuno, cilre, facki, > jimpe, and all the others with a place structure involving "fact x2 > about x3". The argument x3 can be raised from the subordinate clause > in x2. This rarely happens however, because the raised argument is > inconveniently located. That's not what I'm talking about. That's a feature of the language. When x1 of a subordinate clause is elided, it's assumed to be the x1 of the main bridi. That's not what we're discussing, so forgive me if I've applied the wrong terminology. > Nobody really says: > > =A0 =A0 mi facki lo du'u sralo kei ko'a > =A0 =A0 "I found out being Australian about her." > =A0 =A0 "I found out about her being Australian." We really should, though. >_> > Instead of: > > =A0 =A0 mi facki lo du'u ko'a sralo > =A0 =A0 "I found out that she is Australian." > > Raising is just not convenient in Lojban for these propositional > attitude selbri. > > (Also, it is not clear why some of them have a raising place and > others, like for example "birti", don't. Either all should have it or > none, but Lojban place structures are so full of exceptions. But > that's just an aside.) I think that's an error. I've already semi-addressed it to the BPFK. > > Wanting an apple for the purpose of eating > > it is still sumti raising, because it's adding an implied concept of - > > having-. That's what sumti raising is. =3D/ > > It is, in a sense, sumti raising, but not for the reason you give. > Consider these: > > =A0 =A0 =A0 mi pilno lo mapku lo nu dasni > =A0 =A0 =A0 mi nitcu lo mapku lo nu dasni > =A0 =A0 =A0 mi djica lo mapku lo nu dasni Two of these are wrong. =3D\ > "pilno", "nitcu" and "djica" all have basically the same place > structure. (There may be others like them, for example "sazri.) > > Now, we could say that in those three examples, there is a double > sumti raising, since the x1 of dasni is raised to the x1 of the main > clause, and the x2 of dasni is raised to the x2 of the main clause. > But there is nothing wrong with any of them! sumti raising is a normal > part of the Lojban grammar. Some selbri just happen to have argument > places for raised arguments. So what? Why this witch-hunt about the x2 > of djica? Why doesn't anyone ever worry about the tens or maybe > hundreds of other sumti raising places that the gismu list provides? {nitcu} and {djica} both have (or should have) an abstracted second place. What about the apple do you want/need? You've expressed reason and the target, but not what to do with it. -THAT- is my problem here. {pilno} is a bad example, because there's nothing else implied. {nitcu} ... do you need possession? Do you need to throw it? The problem is that the definition does not include -having-. So do we assume when it's an object it's having, and something else in all other cases? That's not what Lojban is about. That's just plain bad practice. > And you didn't say what you think about "dunda lo plise". Do you > object to that too, or do you wisely ignore the gismu list comment in > that case? {dunda} implies no transfer of ownership. It's a simple physical transfer of an object from one person to another. It's like borrowing a pen. It -could- mean a transfer of ownership, but no such sense is implied by the word in of itself. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.