From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDEvLXmBBoE09djxw@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 05:17:28 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCWqd-0003qp-4V; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:27 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf2740390wyb.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=UVuZG6wbYn0Vxi61fF3wAISIFi2SUpNM76TVaceDRLo=; b=sUjSLqTDrX6UEYjGBXF3WBWTbWAQzU9WhU4Pg12GOaIQ36ZjnnpCHOuh3icaFTBTVe rDlqA2pMRVUHdy2y9ZNeGRAsAouQC2/oQ/UMcZ39+T7Ekge993u8UDOqz3kJ3GWb52F3 swFdBtRCO4rabhJc13P/F3aC8Qu/ZRwRhqXXo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i8oEGUt94bmXMMBzuaVV4CNsIvRHAfMjWMXZqSNg5bZO+gTAFW0wwXxl372Z06yfRT sVDC7JbObYkQhLPse9eWOGCi66dtBp6MXJVjIOhAB9XKkRDrJApejHgqVBQypDC/rKvb mulmxdmpc0COKz7SOtqeQso5N6Jgq27Vg3RCQ= Received: by 10.216.237.132 with SMTP id y4mr2061788weq.1.1288527428527; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.5.203 with SMTP id 53ls1875275wel.3.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.19.147 with SMTP id n19mr79964wen.8.1288527427185; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.19.147 with SMTP id n19mr79963wen.8.1288527427137; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o31si1452622wej.10.2010.10.31.05.17.06; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by wye20 with SMTP id 20so4705431wye.38 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.136.72 with SMTP id q8mr11237521wbt.52.1288527425652; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:17:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 09:17:05 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:56 AM, John E. Clifford w= rote: > > But the event of wearing a hat is abstract in Lojban terminology I know, that's why I say Lojban terminology is so haywired sometimes. > (and semantics, since it is a type or some such notion) So when I say: mi viska lo nu do dasni lo mapku is there some problem? Is that a different sense of "viska" from: mi viska lo mapku > =A0I don't get your point: how do you make use of the possession of an o= bject (unless this is a very misleading way of saying you make use of the o= bject). It's just as misleading/non-misleading as specifying that you want to possess it, or that you need to possess it, instead of just saying that you want it or need it. It is for the most part unnecessarily overprecise. > =A0The problem, to come back to it is, is whether the referent of a term = is in the domain of discourse or not, =A0In a lot of cases involving terms = that construct out of human intentions and emotions and cognitions, the ans= wer is that typically the term we put in that place is not, in fact referri= ng to something in the domain of discourse, and should be marked accordingl= y. So you claim, but it doesn't sound right to me. It seems to me that saying something about something is enough to put it in the domain of discourse. >=A0To distinguish it from the occasional cases where it does so refer, if = for nothing else. =A0Lojban decided a long time ago to deal with this probl= em not by marking certain places as being peculiar with respect to some rul= es but by using certain term types that disallowed raising. =A0We have fair= ly frequently failed to follow those plans > =A0with various weird results, but the plan is still a good one. The plan was never a coherent one, and the implementation was a total disaster, since many people are now convinced that "mi djica ta" for "I want that" is incorrect Lojban. > =A0People who say 'mi djicu lo plise' should be prepared to answer, "Whic= h one?" and, if they cannot in principle even do that, then their claim is = false. If I tell you I want an apple, I have to tell you which apple or else my claim is false, but if I tell you I want the having of apples, I don't need to tell you which having of apples and my claim is still true? That's not coherent. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.