From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC09bXmBBoEULAWtA@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 07:18:48 2010 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCYk1-0005o1-Vq; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:48 -0700 Received: by vws14 with SMTP id 14sf5338587vws.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=m5YrEUC5/IOFKPtBd4NhyDJ6qygfAgU1peXb+zg4iik=; b=1ureqObCzvqo02a8W/HlrmejeIIcbgf1uswQ92RHuao3cmTsCEQjeiTKNrHPDJMXYD FcziZLYef3+YKmeMZbhAKdAgXd3oQ2rxLDBoN+zqn6LVUau/GHkQdh7SH7yY1/jsxQJY hqaFpBxwgArGbRbgWZQALvFcnZCx0CCn4+xf8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=qiI9UHhueZoRasDMMYh3JKLsiIP2Dm+RicJwQ8WZ5arroGdlHgKV2iv25Kv7andBL1 YSGZaRxTdggxnJcPss6zSr5323oLP6T8tNdBzwLSutmnKHQqQ59LJawGCL63JvYBcell gvJzisLEgPwb6X1dEGT+X2LmFPFhqVcTIH+LE= Received: by 10.220.181.200 with SMTP id bz8mr556382vcb.55.1288534708025; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.220.157.196 with SMTP id c4ls410537vcx.5.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.189.140 with SMTP id de12mr343436vcb.16.1288534706713; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.189.140 with SMTP id de12mr343434vcb.16.1288534706697; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f45.google.com (mail-vw0-f45.google.com [209.85.212.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id k23si678716vcr.6.2010.10.31.07.18.25; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.45; Received: by mail-vw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 4so2552816vws.4 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.95.212 with SMTP id e20mr1220637qcn.20.1288534705246; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.219.14 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201010291737.49946.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 10:18:25 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: "to pretend" or "to fake" From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2010/10/31 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sat, Oct 30, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> =A0Why not =A0"ko'a jai tcica mi lo nu krici lo du'u ko'a toju'i ce'u"? >> What is pretending in that sense other than tricking someone into >> believing? > > I think the difference is that "tricking into" implies success, while > "pretending" does not. If he tricks you into believeing something, > then you believe it (otherwise he didn't actually trick you into it). > If he pretends to do something, you may be able to see through his > pretense, and so he did not trick you into believeing it. Maybe if you > add a "troci". > >> And so, from there it seems like "kritcica" would be the >> operative lujvo >> x1 kritcica x2 x3 >> (tu'a x1)=3Dt1 pretends to k1=3Dt2 that k2 is true? > > Is the x1 of kritcica meant to be a person or an event? The symbols > suggest an event, but the English gloss suggests a person. > A person, but since there is really no way in lojban to grab a concrete from an abstraction (except perhaps the vague la'e), I had to phrase it as the tu'a of x1 (the first argument of the kritcica) is the t1. Always wished there was an inverse of tu'a. Feel free to rewrite in a clearer way. (I've also always wanted an inverse of nu/ka, i.e. a way to grab a bridi back from an abstraction, so we can say things like "I like going to the movies in the afternoon, but Mikey likes to in the morning" without jumping through hoops ((calling my idea x'ua for a second) "mi nelci lo nu viska lo skina ca lo lecydo'i .iku'i la maikis nelci lo nu xu'a lo se go'i ca lo cerni") Sure, we could use the vague "co'e" but it's ...vague. Sure, if we knew in advance we were gonna need an inner bridi, we could use cei, or construct fa'ustructure, but if not, we're forced to repeat the whole dang thing (which in this particular case is the rather short "viska lo skina", but of course it could potentially be much much longer).) no'i I concede your point though, that tcica does imply snada. --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. 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