From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCS_LXmBBoEjU-M9w@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 07:33:12 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCYxy-0002WP-65; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:33:11 -0700 Received: by yxe42 with SMTP id 42sf7960864yxe.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=WdD7EWD23Y+7QFAReQLNEc8RJ0I6j9o3vGZWohAzWng=; b=A+orUgaQJzlNeFQXlen/KCmkXR/uJ1g7TbxAyLqf71NwQ2uPQz5ApfdcajDezv6Iof NF3WLYItvUHSsTMxS6JHVa3vpsv5IkbRZ0kIgz5COG0AYQOZZbnQrQRqERldEg1yPCja kvPTn7jHbKmAC+BfczY+eSpiDCzqiq5mgUESg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=t3Oq+H/gE/PC/nPlF3EdX3FBZtCO9yCD7B4R8/TvICoflKSA7id0LTXCW63OHy7U6R fCsFMoglujkAMaX7Tv8ocTaLTIQEr/G/rNxzbotR9CTfN81l1GPAXqogbK2F7farCnjR WUBP5vrLcn9D6yf7NQH/B1r8r7+YZFbjsnW1g= Received: by 10.90.160.10 with SMTP id i10mr524261age.52.1288535570507; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.9.34 with SMTP id 34ls894947agi.1.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr2616363agb.26.1288535569911; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.91.2 with SMTP id o2mr2616362agb.26.1288535569897; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u69si1695595yhc.12.2010.10.31.07.32.48; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 80138 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Oct 2010 14:32:48 -0000 Message-ID: <396411.78643.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: fY2G66kVM1lcckUFqN3IRGrJCAp9fHd6bucLr6GG2u22xXv shd8ZLK7az9m6v4cF3kff09Y8CzXzH2LwywpR5k.DZxJBO39n42OsSmQH.fY nLvUjf7CS7c_8nDK1Ttsk7f5yxuVKCvszzmuAlv_8uVt1.q_GfKjdFohiScy YVtTNjGWaTxhZguV_a2d.A52OR69laraVjzgNwmGqTZmkoC_EMJmwgB.9YZ9 2E8cKSef6yqd8uxCdw9ZT4odSwLinwoaJfehNPesHjYvnVPvoFznZTcNm9R5 iV8fjZm6tzmjwvRBmd3pZLaBXQ24jMv3LxY5EJZoQPRke6IGOndUaKI9XkAi jj3ZYYAKSuuaTGCiNyzs2v5A6FFQYaqmi858wmjHFy1p5wLE- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:48 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:32:48 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, I'm not sure who this remark is addressed to, but, since it perpetuates an error that both xorxes and I agree is wrong-headed, I will answer. It is not that 'nitci' changes its meaning, it is that the objects of 'nitci' are of different types and this difference has consequences. When the object is a reference to an ordinary thing, this means that a raising has taken place legitimately. If the object is an abstraction, then the raising is not (treated as) legitmate. Of course, either of these moves may be wrong -- the raising, though carried out, was illegitimate or the raising could have been carried out but wasn't (a much less awful move). 'nitci' always means something like "x1 has a felt lack such that both if (certain conditions specified in x2) were then the lack would be filled and if the lack were filled, the the conditions would obtain." The strange case of 'mi nictci lo plise' arises when we know (contrary to the contrary-to-fact conditionals) that a particular apple in this world that does the trick. ----- Original Message ---- From: Lindar To: lojban Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 7:47:43 AM Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra You're just being arbitrary at this point. I've explained quite thoroughly my side of the argument, and you seem to be ignoring my statements instead of addressing them. For the record, I have explained that the reason it's wrong is because the meaning cannot change based on context. When {djica} means "wants" in some contexts and "wants to have" in others, that is bad. This is why pilno/dunda is okay and djica/nitcu is not. We're not discussing universes of discourse, epistemology, unicorns, magical crabs, and whether we give an apple or give ownership of an apple. It comes down to the simple fact that a gismu cannot change meanings based on context, and you're implying that it can. Consistency is important. If {djica lo plise} means "Want to have an apple." then what does {djica lo nu bajra} mean? "Want to have a running."? You're bringing up a lot of pointless bullshit that really doesn't have anything to do with the actual problem here. You're constantly making comparisons to English and then justifying your malgli because it's valid in English. You are not listening, you are not following logic or standard practice, and I am getting extremely frustrated. So, I am going to, as politely as possible, bow out of this conversation. I'm done. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.