From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCvg7fmBBoEpl3FzA@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 12:21:34 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCdT8-0002kg-7Y; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:34 -0700 Received: by gxk28 with SMTP id 28sf8296295gxk.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8uFVhNToTzLgNycCZd+cVcXWoa52qeiEqTEQSObWtBM=; b=mU/DEeoeI3Pzwt54FwruJgPBp9yHnZPbUvy+6YePYjParVXiV6XTufXOW/iZaQMTDc GrthZzkbNiSy/a4wf0vhzbRVI+mdJHALzP8EtLtDpeflZfDjArEg99gtUXVu8+8uct75 w6o+lOiIjNTHp8or3YfNoZ+XUEdbbtTWZQCTE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=B0x13iFhvV1EAUa3ANfDcGYdzN6RHu6qtlh2743nYXmRfxZ4ApAS3UGJ+4O02TxHkb U3H/MCqM3EDvFTrMn9xdcEgrCa4t121v5KhyP1j45JsmP34Eex4bo4xJifuGox1+KCyp mNOZDsQVjtitfRdpxCYDQHulOm9cLkflRBve4= Received: by 10.151.135.21 with SMTP id m21mr2130275ybn.2.1288552879224; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.24.19 with SMTP id b19ls1736145ybj.1.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.215.3 with SMTP id n3mr6459230ybg.6.1288552878129; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.215.3 with SMTP id n3mr6459229ybg.6.1288552878095; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u10si1954214yba.6.2010.10.31.12.21.16; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 23893 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Oct 2010 19:21:16 -0000 Message-ID: <533056.20627.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: _P0R1m8VM1mNfelwhx_EAEhwtRq_zxjJUf8kJwTtNjW6QCJ cBTVIdyV9ptX1ZU7k_kyvu33CiftLuhYqUSKhouZQafmZX8ial__9dQYaGzw iDl7sKhQun.N9cvbelCMzgX9LzYsHkYzoD3E3rFEZxvSMAPibjD2ztLYqlKY 9Pw5.kvrW6jL7yIV8SNS8y.Cq5x5w8O5RMCP1WC4ANGOy.Z21PdMEyZGC2PL IyF6LXoJFQsC2wGO8yu2.szKLdBOL_Jc1BPN0wQT22HtwmrSInB6jqgWQbWJ hV8m9qZImRQB1vpZvHFzvedtK72Dy4EUuEY0wD9t3TqIhiKrplUd2v8afKNb 4_HUX82wiMVh55E2Mhw-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:16 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, October 31, 2010 8:55:21 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Lindar wrote: > You're just being arbitrary at this point. I've explained quite > thoroughly my side of the argument, and you seem to be ignoring my > statements instead of addressing them. I thought I did address them. > For the record, I have > explained that the reason it's wrong is because the meaning cannot > change based on context. I agree with that. > When {djica} means "wants" in some contexts > and "wants to have" in others, that is bad. It always means "wants", in all contexts. > This is why pilno/dunda is > okay and djica/nitcu is not. We're not discussing universes of > discourse, epistemology, unicorns, magical crabs, and whether we give > an apple or give ownership of an apple. When pc enters a discussion, unicorns always follow him. Don't blame me for that. **Sorry 'bout that, but I think I inherited them from an earlier discussion= (I=20 know I didn't come up with 'pavyseljirna'). > It comes down to the simple > fact that a gismu cannot change meanings based on context, and you're > implying that it can. I don't think I am. **You aren't but not for the reasons you give > Consistency is important. If {djica lo plise} > means "Want to have an apple." It doesn't. It means "want an apple". ** Right (but a particular one, though I know you disagree) >then what does {djica lo nu bajra} > mean? It means "want running". **Probably "I want to run", with subject elision. > "Want to have a running."? You're bringing up a lot of pointless > bullshit that really doesn't have anything to do with the actual > problem here. You're constantly making comparisons to English and then > justifying your malgli because it's valid in English. I'm saying that "want an apple" is no different from "use an apple" or "give an apple". They may all indirectly involve the having of the apple, but the having is not a direct part of what you are saying. **Well, yes and no. If you say 'mi djica lo plise', you can do everything = with=20 that 'lo plise' that you can do with the one in 'mi pilno lo plise'. The= =20 difference is in how you got the 'lo plise' there in the first place: if yo= u use=20 an apple, there it is, you are using it. If you want an apple. where is it= ?=20 The logic of 'pilno' pretty certainly doesn't involve a pair of=20 contrary-to-fact conditionals, the way the logic of 'djica' does. So, for = that=20 'lo plise' to be all alone in the argument place means that it was legitima= tely=20 raised from those remote places, i.e., it has a referent in the present dom= ain.=20 Now, it is true of any apple (more or less) that it will satisfy your desi= re,=20 but, assuming that lo plise' in all this does not have a current referent, = it is=20 not true of any apple, that, if my desire is fulfilled, have *that* apple = -- I=20 might have another one instead. And I would be happy to have this conversation in Lojban if you prefer, so as not to let the English interfere. I'm not basing my view on what English does or doesn't allow. **English is hopelessly opaque on this, but never claims to be logical. Lo= jban=20 is not very clear on this but does have the groundwork to do it right -- an= d=20 should use it, given it does claim to be a logical language. > You are not listening, you are not following logic or standard > practice, and I am getting extremely frustrated. Sorry about that. I did misunderstand you on one point. I thought your argument went like this: "the gi'uste says that the x2 of djica has to be an event, therefore "mi djica lo plise" is wrong." That's why I brought up "dunda", because the gi'uste also says that "mi dunda lo plise" is wrong, and I don't suppose you agree with that. **I don't see why 'dunda' has a restriction to event either (I have more tr= ouble=20 imagining why it allows events). But what you are actually saying is more like: "from my introspecting into the real meaning of "djica", it is clear to me that only events can be se djica, when we say we djica an object we are in fact kidding ourselves, because what we really djica is to have that object". Am I right that that is your argument? **Usually, but not always. So you are both a little wrong. and a lot righ= t. What I am saying is that when we djica something, the having of it is as important or as secondary as in the case of using something. Yes, in both cases when we want/use an object, we also want/use the having of it, but that doesn't mean that we don't want/use it itself. Both djica and pilno allow events in x2. Do you agree? mi pilno lo nu mi se slabu lo tcadu kei lo nu tolcri lo dargu "I use my being familiar with the city to find my way around." mi djica lo nu mi se slabu lo tcadu kei lo nu tolcri lo dargu "I want to be familiar with the city to find my way around." Do you agree that both of those are correct Lojban? Assuming you do, why would it be different for: mi pilno lo fartci lo nu tolcri lo dargu "I use a compass to find my way around." mi djica lo fartci lo nu tolcri lo dargu "I want a compass to find my way around." Yes, I could say instead that I use my having a compass, just as I use my being familiar with the city, or that I want my having a compass, just as I want my being familiar with the city, but that's not required, I can just use/want the compass itself. And I'm not relying on the English glosses to make this argument, just consider the Lojban alone if you prefer. Of course you can always make it more precise by saying that what you use/want is having the compass in your hand, or somehow available to you. But if you don't specify that, you can still use/want the compass to find your way around. And in many cases you don't need to specify it. > So, I am going to, as politely as possible, bow out of this > conversation. > > I'm done. OK. If I'm missing some part of your argument it is not because I'm purposefully ignoring it. *As I said before, this last bit is mostly off topic, since it is not the r= ole=20 that events play that is crucial here. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.