From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC-g7fmBBoEx2JOHw@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 12:21:52 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCdTN-0002m8-DJ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:52 -0700 Received: by gyd5 with SMTP id 5sf8295633gyd.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GSO5QKUNJ3Z6XGZKDFc2OV8oycMmju9lImNNrPOQYyA=; b=eT2jbfI6csxIdDO7KFKl48QCpNh72KvQ46c7e8r6BV1BX8L207baZHHzkiWMU5Czsn VLyx0GLweYDaTNlmOqpXS9/kU+M5PpZ1bsGN5RYyoYNjdnwDKAQZqFc2YzEVtLG4WJFn 4yfSwpsEj0x1ibuTBvLdXtJuOXcAosLRhgiYU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=U//f5n5IuK92GqVY+pUL4wA00mgqvlsPGiLUULa5+NK+TfPsnv9yhf/AIS8dBhyuUX zfLuaKztV4EXyRoiXxfi5Gmp2eYcaAKZPW4MTV++XvFxDJPrxAfbGqfrdPDLFj7j4trr DG234C4EgesOQzVOog2vfiZjv+LeriOMLV6Qw= Received: by 10.90.2.37 with SMTP id 37mr523195agb.30.1288552894440; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.170.4 with SMTP id x4ls923870ago.0.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.50.24 with SMTP id c24mr3780749agk.1.1288552892519; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.50.24 with SMTP id c24mr3780748agk.1.1288552892505; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id z43si1796340yhc.9.2010.10.31.12.21.31; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 24103 invoked by uid 60001); 31 Oct 2010 19:21:31 -0000 Message-ID: <999586.13209.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: P.ltvD8VM1lqLKMLG_TpUc38bw.vBzNsnMy0U9OWdyLKHqZ yWl0- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:30 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 References: <201010301617.52176.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 12:21:30 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <201010301617.52176.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, of course, all the technical terminology of Lojban is cover for ordin= ary=20 terms in logic and linguistics. And we do have "metaphor", left over from = JCB,=20 and probably a few others. "Raising" actually seems to be one we got prett= y=20 much right. The problem at hand is to deal with raising as a grammatical operation, wit= hout=20 ruining a valid inference. If I can raise "a unicorn" from "I want to ride= a=20 unicorn" to (for explicitness) "There is a unicorn I want to ride". The= =20 grammar is unobjectionable, but the corresponding inference is invalid. Pa= rt of=20 what was originally built into the notion of "a logical language" was that= =20 grammatical transformation should all be valid inferences, and by and large= ,=20 Loglan and Lojban have adhered to that. But not here, if the transformatio= n is=20 allowed. The problem is that, in the standard theory (as vague as that may= be), mentioning a unicorn in a proposition (or whatever) does not put unicorns i= n the=20 domain of discourse (but in some other peripheral domain, reachable by vari= ous=20 nefarious means), while mentioning a unicorn outside such secondary context= s=20 does, So, the grammatical raising also moves a referent from some remote d= omain=20 to the current one, without all the nefarious means, Inferences don't expa= nd=20 the universe of discourse. xorxes would solve this by having the unicorn a= dded=20 as soon as it appears, pretty much regardless of context, so that the unico= rn=20 was already in with the utterance of the first sentence. This blocks off s= ome=20 reasonable responses and doesn't solve all the problems involved, so is=20 ultimately not acceptable. But he has held to it (in various forms and by= =20 various dodges -- see the history of 'lo') -- for, gee, it seems like decad= es, ----- Original Message ---- From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, October 30, 2010 3:17:51 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: [lojban-beginners] Re: mi kakne lo bajra On Saturday 30 October 2010 10:27:45 Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > "Raising" is a term from linguistics that, like so many other terms > from linguistics, is often misapplied in Lojban. If you really want to > know what "raising" is, this is a good place to start: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_(linguistics) What are the others, and how should Lojban be discussed in proper linguisti= c=20 terms? I'm aware of "modal", which in the Book denotes a preposition derive= d=20 from a selbri (i.e., a proper preposition; "do'e", which is not derived fro= m=20 a brivla, means "fi'o co'e", so it still qualifies), and in linguistics=20 denotes words like "ka'e". Pierre --=20 Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.