From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRC7pbfmBBoEyB6ziQ@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 13:34:23 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCebX-0008Qd-0S; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:22 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf2941582wyb.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=OFrJAymPU6iqUvAzplFokuN4xfiKq2ch5lQTMvsiXZQ=; b=jC/UMQw32oGxqfDP/MQhdEQvRvdaXb/Ll36H+SYKGm6EPhHYQ1e38H7PqTovD5jTng gsXqVUq37XbsBD5pAwfUOuK68Z//leWS9rwC5T7M43R31HGSjPD0EdzgMlUp2gDTpZSp Wx2nClHeNX7h9Pe/MgUIEx77T6GhTjWUghxYE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ES4CD3id/NYeC8yA8ZezULDhIx22xDXQGmJhBgYuvX/eOlhOnwS28rHafUUZFhVwYU tpg+Iste+d0tIJnJpPyHrW4oLBGWE88sFKRAzqu4AK0gJuzmNjn7yFV9FinkMhXoJWQt LJ8bZ2kAWU+u6zFuUr45l5EKeMW36+R5FNJ4M= Received: by 10.216.240.140 with SMTP id e12mr2058971wer.15.1288557243095; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.242.202 with SMTP id i52ls2129924wer.0.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.19.147 with SMTP id n19mr102145wen.8.1288557241926; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.19.147 with SMTP id n19mr102144wen.8.1288557241837; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f181.google.com (mail-wy0-f181.google.com [74.125.82.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id o31si1599984wej.2.2010.10.31.13.34.00; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.181; Received: by mail-wy0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 40so5217164wyb.26 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.133.140 with SMTP id f12mr2052203wbt.139.1288557240477; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:34:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <761203.1069.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <761203.1069.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:34:00 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 11:15 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 12:56 AM, John E. Clifford = wrote: >> >> But the event of wearing a hat is abstract in Lojban terminology > > I know, that's why I say Lojban terminology is so haywired sometimes. > > **I don't see the problem here; "abstract term" means one whose selbri (G= od I > hate Lb terminology) is constructed using cmavo of a certain kind (or arr= ay of > kinds). Are "lo fasnu", "lo se ckaji", "lo se djuno", "lo se viska" abstract, by that definition? Their selbri are not constructed using cmavo of the kind you have in mind. >> (and semantics, since it is a type or some such notion) > > So when I say: > > =A0 =A0 mi viska lo nu do dasni lo mapku > > is there some problem? Is that a different sense of "viska" from: > > =A0 =A0 mi viska lo mapku > > **No, but it is looking at a different object, in this case allowing for > delusions or or other sorts of misseeings. =A0If you're sure your percept= ion there > is veridical (love slipping that word in from time to time) then go ahead= and > raise. =A0You still may be wrong, of course, but that was always a risk. = 'nu' is > probably not the best choice for an abstractor here. So "abstractions" can be visible. What would be the best choice of "abstractor" here, if not "nu"? > The plan was never a coherent one, and the implementation was a total > disaster, since many people are now convinced that "mi djica ta" for > "I want that" is incorrect Lojban. > > **Well, it is true that the need to be careful in these places has been > overstressed, with the results you report, that doesn't mean the plan was= a bad > one nor incoherent. I still don't see how it is coherent to require hats to always be tokens, but allowing hat-wearings to be sometimes types and sometimes tokens. There is nothing in the semantics of hats and hat-wearings to warrant the distinction, nor in the syntax of "lo mapku" and "lo mapnundasni". >=A0It may be that the choice of abstractors to use was wrong > (I personally think it all comes down to propositions, since I am reasona= bly > sure they exist and am much less sure about any of the others). Would you have propositions be visible, or just desirable? If just desirable, would they be desirable in the same way that objects can be desirable? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.