From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARC_2LfmBBoEc_SKsg@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 15:23:09 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCgIr-000745-C0; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:23:09 -0700 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf173618pxi.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=SRaAXnK7svm8PrfKbl1ZEoxZzUl4Om75pOwU2T3r0Fw=; b=AXckVEgaDctOFp+btnierW4+ypZVF7PXDCrT7Phfcg8YTjYDXoBcmqk2WS88zWrCLb +syRYov/5vH2huiaGnS0zhP2yKWMQlkLcBG8GcaegKUyo5SyANc+C1ZRfnqKtixNEkWH bOMem4fufy0GAhp8uxoZ1T4MlDH1wOg5TDvVc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=rF5bXotzyPjKkSxGgN1u55zHZ8rcTiwZilSRRUQB95qyPNitHa96n9DQh1VM+ra3Ul NAOH/K0z6WDyWN76azCxPb57jMk+q6Ww3vUxhK+jF6S3lptLmCZDK6WleJ/o1SkJurVD 9ZlVLJs1XL1irPIOYmQlTPpDemNVOjcLM02zY= Received: by 10.142.149.20 with SMTP id w20mr160844wfd.52.1288563775232; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls4913856wfb.0.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.210.2 with SMTP id i2mr2943655wfg.45.1288563774693; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.210.2 with SMTP id i2mr2943653wfg.45.1288563774663; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-px0-f176.google.com (mail-px0-f176.google.com [209.85.212.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y8si8096593wfj.1.2010.10.31.15.22.53; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.176; Received: by pxi5 with SMTP id 5so569775pxi.21 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.155.2 with SMTP id c2mr935158wfe.51.1288563773525; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.71.13 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:22:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:22:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd14ac0fdcde80493f1210b --000e0cd14ac0fdcde80493f1210b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a hierarchy here, and you have to sort of arbitrarily decide how it's structured. Physical concreteness (that is, being an object basically) is a good place to start. Splitting events off from the others because of their temporal concreteness is probably a good second step, which gives you 3 nodes at the 3rd level of the type tree, 2 of which are leaves. The separation continues after this of course, but I wasn't talking about that for purposes of this discussion. And the idea that one argument of a predicate should be able to define the types of the others is interesting, but then you start talking about trying to implement a full-fledged type inference system in a spoken language if you want everything to really make sense. I don't know if that's reasonable (though it would be awesome if we pulled it off.) mu'o mi'e latros. 2010/10/31 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Ian Johnson > The "event is concrete" concept is interesting, but I disagree with the > idea > > of lumping events in with physical objects in predicate structure. If > > anything they should be a third type unto themselves. > Why only "third"? Do you lump numbers, sets, properties and > propositions into one type? Which predicates accept numbers, sets, > properties and propositions but not physical objects? > > > As for the issue with {zmadu}, the problem that it is possible to compa= re > > two objects as long as they are of the same type, but that comparison i= s > > defined for different types as well. > > Right, the x3, the property, determines the kind of comparison. It is > essentially the same case as "ckaji", where the x2, the property, > determines what can go in x1. And indeed any predicate with a property > place. The type of the x1 of "mutce" will be determined by the type > accepted by the property in x2. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd14ac0fdcde80493f1210b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a hierarchy here, and you have to sort of arbitrarily decide ho= w it's structured. Physical concreteness (that is, being an object basi= cally) is a good place to start. Splitting events off from the others becau= se of their temporal concreteness is probably a good second step, which giv= es you 3 nodes at the 3rd level of the type tree, 2 of which are leaves. Th= e separation continues after this of course, but I wasn't talking about= that for purposes of this discussion.

And the idea that one argument of a predicate should be able= to define the types of the others is interesting, but then you start talki= ng about trying to implement a full-fledged type inference system in a spok= en language if you want everything to really make sense. I don't know i= f that's reasonable (though it would be awesome if we pulled it off.)

mu'o mi'e latros.

2010/10/31 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com wrote:
> The "event is concrete" concept is interesting, but I disagr= ee with the idea
> of lumping events in with physical objects in predicate structure. If<= br> > anything they should be a third type unto themselves.
Why only "third"? Do you lump numbers, sets, properties and=
propositions into one type? Which predicates accept numbers, sets,
properties and propositions but not physical objects?

> As for the issue with {zmadu}, the problem that it is possible to comp= are
> two objects as long as they are of the same type, but that comparison = is
> defined for different types as well.

Right, the x3, the property, determines the kind of comparison. It is=
essentially the same case as "ckaji", where the x2, the property,=
determines what can go in x1. And indeed any predicate with a property
place. The type of the x1 of "mutce" will be determined by the ty= pe
accepted by the property in x2.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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