From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDPtrjmBBoEHd4acg@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 18:44:03 2010 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCjRE-0003et-07; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:44:03 -0700 Received: by wwb34 with SMTP id 34sf3092885wwb.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Bsw8b5JPdEDFdImaWtg+bfOxA4esC80sG6zHpYoO9K0=; b=4Ps0yxqNOFbtxTxDrTRQRkpkmgG59f3mZP50H8MqnnwZ60bf4ZuaFGO+E5lbEHawrT FScYcZhhq/HGOdYhQfwwuwT0Vb0atbpUDs2EqvErrPWNHrOWatCWtUOZZfZIoPclKD95 opcuskan/ke+etVgKCFFaH0yUMIRFAhICsaMU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=EwWRjdRY1i/Do6wV3p2vkVJzJ2CuxfO0S2eVaxI9iUbD/BoftWeI37lEdoI9EhPPXV nVbZRm69B41WtaIFac0eLNfbVBTrRHM6qLl/W1jrYPzEGu6ifgPwBfwxklFCqa6bxxg9 nWp6R4MvGJjZrg3UM2WnW6QJYdr/4fgmIQvs4= Received: by 10.216.232.5 with SMTP id m5mr160375weq.8.1288575823622; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.58.143 with SMTP id q15ls2205548wec.1.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.136.23 with SMTP id v23mr780501wei.1.1288575822586; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.136.23 with SMTP id v23mr780500wei.1.1288575822535; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f49.google.com (mail-ww0-f49.google.com [74.125.82.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id t18si1684182wes.1.2010.10.31.18.43.41; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.49; Received: by wwb17 with SMTP id 17so5254772wwb.18 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.127.66 with SMTP id f2mr1552679wbs.81.1288575821237; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:43:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201010291737.49946.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 22:43:41 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: "to pretend" or "to fake" From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: >=A0=A0But we can refer to any (non prosumti) > sumti we want, no matter how far down it is, since ri/ra/ru and > abu/by/cy "see" all levels at once. So since we can do that, I'm just > looking for a abstraction undoer... So you need to convert a sumti into a selbri. The direct way of doing that is with "ME sumti [MOI] /MEhU/", but neither ME by itself nor with help of any of the MOIs seems to do what you want, because they all have their own fixed placed structure, and you want something with variable place structure depending on the sumti. So here is a more indirect way: "NUhA MAhO MOhE sumti /TEhU/ /TEhU/" The sumti is first converted into an operand, then the operand into an operator, and then the operator into a selbri. I don't know whether the place structure of the bridi embedded inside the sumti will survive all those transformations and emerge in the final selbri, but at least the final selbri does not have a fixed place structure like with the direct "ME" conversion. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.