From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCbzLjmBBoEIb7wcg@googlegroups.com Sun Oct 31 19:30:06 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCk9n-0007LR-Nf; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:30:06 -0700 Received: by yxe42 with SMTP id 42sf8735854yxe.16 for ; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nbijo0XQKUJfoZyuCPtvpzD7jZlnOwUarLTG8iPg6zI=; b=kyTGMaWTiqtprk1w1QucxbMOJBqcCF6t0DWAoM08J+9hERLqvyiPXi+VULLHFeEBw4 d8EFAc5KrxlA9MVqZY7wFKMQsHun3vTH871jJ/iUFlki7Dy2knH0y+yUPUMi1WABBodf VVS9o3wnuFNo/Fs0D2KcoqZcV8vuufJKyVHks= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=eYlofe1ZthD7PH2oMizLBJPeseyoEf2P6fb91JjpjUxSo9eLo3PokYlmljneQ5yd8j IAkEDXipFkj05OzdE03ARcdW44aU8Ssg0WBLtxBJBtZxoSyzel0Bgs3X7tmy5Y5Zoq1N Zc2/7pCH7XzrQhtFIRdezEdn7SOruhfo4qEtY= Received: by 10.151.62.41 with SMTP id p41mr2200501ybk.56.1288578587746; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.85.5 with SMTP id n5ls3012857ybl.2.p; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.8.16 with SMTP id l16mr6607962ybi.16.1288578587102; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.8.16 with SMTP id l16mr6607961ybi.16.1288578587072; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.118]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id p19si2121718ybk.10.2010.10.31.19.29.45; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.118; Received: (qmail 84673 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Nov 2010 02:29:45 -0000 Message-ID: <414356.84661.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: VsjqHisVM1nYLq3yA5hCM68wKgnT57M4i1Uvo4wQ3u7J_jm 3c9lN3lt5Zn6Z390oA_7I5qH4rlPHyw1ea_qRJT4PjIEzsmEMQ1vgEjxXeOH .wAALkQLB2ilnhWOBCFg3umBjOaaKyYIvzloKR.VQd.8cX2pXlJAY8172iOT 8IRgnjs1Beg1yBFY2Xe8093ouiaVAv8N9yJmSKbgY4ZAmee22Eb7qrUZD67a 4oLcQM.sVCvjp0K7y7p3cg6AdUaje3DMNnE84YTrbzg9IGBOUJuDEf.EhXZO AukQ_rsNGQ3OrDRq0P3GB9BkCVinM1H1D1L_jrQgWqFo.UPZYfLXO.w.cIYA j6ehrvsKE0JYdDnSDFq00CrNfWjZhDhz8N5WGgQiK.NOimQ-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:44 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:29:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.118 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, I disagree about what "want" means in English, partly because it does= n't mean anything about having or existing or what have you. The other pro= blem -- where using English has its problems -- is that doesn't mean anythi= ng else very precise, precise enough to explicate what is happening here (a= nd there, for that matter). English, in my terms, regularly raises terms i= llegitimately and, in the process, loses the matrix from which they were dr= awn, so we don't know what the apple, say, was wanted about -- but whatever= it was, it was in the original term, not in 'want' (or 'djica'). In "I wa= nt an apple" as in 'mi djica lo plise', we don't know what the conditions a= re that define and finish the requirements in the two counterfactuals, beca= use the term has been raised to replace it -- just as we do not know what w= as said when we say we talked about counterfactuals. Sent from my iPad On Oct 31, 2010, at 19:29, Lindar wrote: I was PMSing yesterday. I still am today. ((more bitchiness follows)) Seriously, stop using English to define Lojban. That's your whole problem. You keep saying, "Yeah, it means 'want' like 'I want an apple'" and that's -not- how it works. The English means "I want to possess and have on my person an apple.". So if you're saying that {mi djica lo plise} means that, then what does {mi djica lo nu bajra} mean? I want to possess and have on my person running? It has to mean the same thing every time. That's what the issue is exactly. If anything the implication is existence. "I desire the existence of X." is a more accurate English translation of the correct usage. Addressing {nitcu}, it works the same way. However, {pilno} doesn't mention anything or have any implication of ownership, possession, or carrying, as you pointed out. One can use one's sense of direction just the same as one can use a hammer. It doesn't imply any kind of carrying, possession, or method of use, just that it is used, and for what purpose, but not how. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.