From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD4093mBBoEGqxg9w@googlegroups.com Sun Nov 07 19:10:00 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PFI7I-0007HK-1n; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:10:00 -0800 Received: by ywj3 with SMTP id 3sf6010953ywj.16 for ; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=k+iw4t84wkPzSifIlN0pJf9InM70mOwqhxfpFHWQysU=; b=W+GdBcFz3dGApd9AkCFo30K8oAd5qz4npBrPb2xmEp/f6FwAJQaRH/eMTkFQEbeJu3 QxLyhFKwCjNfpTmUAa0X8YbjR95LLmbUANjEkjZs74Uz5wWkYptxHoQ7W7uLP69KhiCv FOftSsqccC4a44KlNZJyUheqfj38HyGt7soso= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from :subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=tN0QAW2LD/wloX8TtyZSv8MHmqqY2SimVRx2dcp4b/A9Q4dbA7JtED2ZpOk22pNf2V AHLHvK7L2gxpVdPMp9bb0bOjJapwiHRRUzEwybthQjW2qbqKCdpXcTjLrVM3fl+T7S+s XtnfFnqhjJ0viq3AWLA1RyZzxXxkNL9Qbmfqk= Received: by 10.101.51.8 with SMTP id d8mr73381ank.43.1289185784173; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:44 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.47.18 with SMTP id u18ls1636369anu.5.p; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.45.12 with SMTP id s12mr580871ans.39.1289185783469; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.45.12 with SMTP id s12mr580870ans.39.1289185783458; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.117]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id q5si1669742anf.9.2010.11.07.19.09.42; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:42 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.117; Received: (qmail 28360 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Nov 2010 03:09:40 -0000 Message-ID: <494430.26999.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: h2tSoTgVM1nhPjs3h2hF9CTcM_776Txl.by0eJcG5zx3c6Q PrvU_MGXVsWV8uf9DmcDNRKx0LzLgKQwRTI7efkAfIrrgk8ZrAKnZNxB4Gn0 vEe5QX8qdHAtTbcDvTYBxaT6YZWXNAXNJic6LZPPvg9X.LJkUo7I94ZWi51y 9uY0H0Lr_UwwiJXUek6GgpvAtyMKnaMwi5weQaz9rpJuCE67aYNkgHlUYASs eJqGUtAh3qDuXArkbZmvlzLlGdYifQp986lDmSCPGLjHIODVtVNchwxB4RzE 9idJf0ExLF.GvgaOKQY2mQiRUumAoCrjQvaCNRDD5rOAtcnc14.mVbWSzFYp GYp27KENlr3s6bsP4dnxJSFewvYoZpUQqJ2WtUv7Hgq5f.w-- Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 07 Nov 2010 19:09:40 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.284920 Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 19:09:40 -0800 (PST) From: "John E. Clifford" Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I wanted to share this with you (writing thingy!). To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.117 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Nicely put! Sent from my iPad On Nov 7, 2010, at 17:25, Craig Daniel wrote: On Sun, Nov 7, 2010 at 5:20 PM, John E Clifford wrote: And the point of all this is...? Creating new alphabets is an interesting part of language creation and give flight to the more aesthetically inclined. It is thus welcomed and applauded. But the suggestion that we actually use this (or any other clever alphabet) for Lojban inevitably brings on the point of practicality. It is hard enough to learn Lojban as it is, in a familiar -- if slightly modified -- alphabet, bbut to add learning a new alphabet, however clever, may well be the straw, etc. (see, as a not very atypical example, my years of not learning Hebrew, not to mention Chinese). The fact that the letter ""all look the same" just adds to the problem in this case (cf Hebrew again and Armenian and Thai to start the list). While the claim is not literally true, it is perceptually true enough to amount to a serious problem. But it sure looks nice. Creating new and inventive ways to write Lojban that each internally preserve desirable lojbanic qualities, with no expectation that they will ever catch on, and creating beautiful things with them is a hobby nearly as old as the language itself. Seriously, the CLL mentions Cyrillic (an actually practical one, for jbopre in Slavic countries) and Tengwar. This sort of thing is in a very real sense the most popular artistic tradition of the Lojban community. So, the point is joy. And art, without which no community can thrive. It is entirely useless, but it is fun and beautiful and that's good enough for me. (And it reminds me that I need to get around to digitizing some of my own Roman-alphabet Lojban calligraphy.) mi'e .kreig.daniyl. noi zu stidi su'o ve pensniste ku ku'i na stidi .ai le du'u plixau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.