From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCf3frmBBoEPw3nZA@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 13 07:28:51 2010 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PHI1y-0002FJ-P2; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:51 -0800 Received: by pvh1 with SMTP id 1sf1546255pvh.16 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=mYXV42m3t8sTM6J9EIWZ400A7YM/DwckaYU5iIn8nyg=; b=TTMgGJ0lmHAwqE2LYc4TXhl+QZHD7iGfFN5j7DRDWPIcSZG0AwYxWI6lftJ7ryFgk1 icczs5FBlY+fQ5ktm5u4BZzgGeAaUkIk6c59LH5MHfwHfWIYufBWzkgbqlz3O5UVtTBN UZcn4id69rb6vYV7bVTwRPVqFem46YpepHDWU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=xV4BKeBT196EmXRezK/FMzfH5gFQEzpldmN3Y8rPzdE3c9PgrI3k+K05I7QXX8HgXu jVv9Vhzf7ePVEbfW+uwrc+ZcKup2moNdDDObzKvMPnNgNi3IpCkmRL48KVHAnek1h/o9 lJEfRLBBgw1O3IjwDyAycRVvWet1q3KhTtI98= Received: by 10.143.20.28 with SMTP id x28mr219796wfi.26.1289662111667; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:31 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls5670585wfb.0.p; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.170.17 with SMTP id s17mr1740511wfe.44.1289662110699; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.170.17 with SMTP id s17mr1740508wfe.44.1289662110661; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f49.google.com (mail-pw0-f49.google.com [209.85.160.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y8si7408523wfj.1.2010.11.13.07.28.29; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.49; Received: by pwj8 with SMTP id 8so728919pwj.8 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.245.15 with SMTP id s15mr2961710wfh.263.1289662109525; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.86.1 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:28:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:28:29 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: x1 to the left From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd172b4eb29a80494f0dbba --000e0cd172b4eb29a80494f0dbba Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If you're using place structure, you're inevitably going to "discriminate" against some word order that is standard in some natlang. After all, there are 6 different ones: SVO, SOV, VSO, VOS, OVS, OSV. Lojban without FA or SE is SVO. I will say, though, that VSO is a bit tempting; it takes the idea of selbri as predicates that take arguments and extends it to the actual way of speaking the language. The main issue that I would have is that we would be sacrificing the notion of a "bridi tail", which has some nice properties. One of them, albeit one that doesn't actually get used much (probably because most seljbobau are also selglibau) is the ability to say: ko'a ko'e broda gi'e brode A concrete example (this is used in L4B): la nik. la kalifornias. klama gi'e stali mu'o mi'e latros. On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 1:46 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > haha, I do speak lojbanically; as often as I can. It's mostly the > nit-picky theory-oriented side of me that's irked by the fact that all the > sumti slots of a selbri are same except in this one way. You use fa to move > around to the slots or se to swap them around, all of this you do the same > way for all of them. They all live by the same rules.... except this one. > > It's like "all dogs go to heaven... except for poodles... because > it's convenient and therefore desirable". > > It also seems somewhat biased against verb-object-subject and > verb-subject-object types of languages. > > > On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Lindar wrote: > >> My two cents: >> >> It's a feature, and a rather useful one. Very often the x1 is omitted >> to make it a more observation-like phrasing. Speak Lojbanically and >> you'll see why we have it set up that way. =P >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd172b4eb29a80494f0dbba Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you're using place structure, you're inevitably going to "d= iscriminate" against some word order that is standard in some natlang.= After all, there are 6 different ones: SVO, SOV, VSO, VOS, OVS, OSV. Lojba= n without FA or SE is SVO.

I will say, though, that VSO is a bit tempting; it takes the idea of se= lbri as predicates that take arguments and extends it to the actual way of = speaking the language. The main issue that I would have is that we would be= sacrificing the notion of a "bridi tail", which has some nice pr= operties. One of them, albeit one that doesn't actually get used much (= probably because most seljbobau are also selglibau) is the ability to say:<= br> ko'a ko'e broda gi'e brode

A concrete example (this is u= sed in L4B):
la nik. la kalifornias. klama gi'e stali

mu'= o mi'e latros.

On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 a= t 1:46 AM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
haha, I do speak = lojbanically; as often as I can. =A0It's mostly the nit-picky theory-or= iented side of me that's irked by the fact that all the sumti slots of = a selbri are same except in this one way. =A0You use fa to move around to t= he slots or se to swap them around, all of this you do the same way for all= of them. =A0They all live by the same rules.... except this one.

It's like "all dogs go to heaven... except for pood= les... because it's=A0convenient=A0and therefore desirable".
=

It also seems somewhat biased against verb-object-subje= ct and verb-subject-object types of languages.


On Fri, Nov 12, 2010 at 11:16 PM, Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com> wrote:
My two cents:

It's a feature, and a rather useful one. Very often the x1 is omitted to make it a more observation-like phrasing. Speak Lojbanically and
you'll see why we have it set up that way. =3DP

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