From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCl6PrmBBoEcUw4KQ@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 13 07:52:21 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PHIOn-00040A-Dq; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:20 -0800 Received: by gxk1 with SMTP id 1sf978964gxk.16 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=O4+REKNvJLgqB2moaeFQv2Xz8ms1Bbpzojh7ls1/pW0=; b=oe0AscFvN7HzvNRT+yZw1LI5Ou+qCmo3r8sS6vCNW3fQStgBu+qa6HimAls+oF07Ed j3c+P61KyJPXwNkyYjN5TYFTfxxuaK4BP7c++2qwwdAraqXoXnYJwZCeiH9AYGO5OQXh C232pZ/Z9TnO2D4zraYWzz52nrSx6sqeQ9vWg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Rpb35XYWQofF1gf8yzqBz4E8pjnNX0jx7K7BMXBy+MX42Pmu+P1bn3cc/Iuqx9q/rQ FXoyNKXK7gfGiZCYDYx4rwm0+hSkIQoHaOCJCGKz234TVTXEX1rrhuwLteuNPohrZy1q /xp4WBPsjUvrkRrr+JGPfpp81jgUsqlz9ODY8= Received: by 10.100.197.8 with SMTP id u8mr124995anf.55.1289663525350; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.47.18 with SMTP id u18ls1045094anu.5.p; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.127.10 with SMTP id z10mr706802anc.47.1289663523667; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.127.10 with SMTP id z10mr706801anc.47.1289663523656; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c20si316799and.5.2010.11.13.07.52.02; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:02 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.119; Received: (qmail 2183 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Nov 2010 15:52:02 -0000 Message-ID: <940499.93769.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: xDvIu08VM1kAFg6y2itEQAwcwEX0Mt2padtBe4wbrkUg7pq fq5vguxI.42o6fgt8DhseT3ntDUXbLJGbPBcVbaAipfk1z98f08Ol.vBidys RqEKgjRafvJEeSYBLGUh_uC5CAG0Jswkibr_TY6qdcSvilwuH1ychYdYBkLD _6d10R9EaaVSby0plE7vqJ6CdYu7kOFSilNZUzEbfsj.5tEi.VbQdcCYcinE vuXU3PfuOwUigzdXbgosv9whvVsbyFzh_tMbseOx7uAYCCwL5cK6yGgBHc.Y 9fW_67VJsS15TnoFwulZLT1p26D9xe_TrkzgZJtpVEnWPI6nqK0hIb4HBQuw GF4.RGBNbVLX46Ev45dX5NYCQfAVUQJ08evi0i6FfznNsWDWaMeq.mwRp Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:01 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 07:52:01 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] mind map of lojban terms To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I smell a use-mention confusion here, though it is hard to pin down. xorxe= s is=20 quite careful in his remarks about 'lerfu', but some other points are less= =20 clear. As usual, the problem seems to circle around the core. A bridi is a= =20 predicate, therefore a word or phrase. A selbri is then the abstract enti= ty, a=20 relation, to which the bridi refers (or, maybe. means). A sumti is then a= =20 object which is involved in the selbri relation, a relatum. A brivla is a = word=20 that can serve as a bridi. The definition of 'tanru' is then suspect since= it=20 groups words (brivla) to form not a phrase (bridi) but a relation (selbri).= =20 Similarly, a gadri is said to transform a selbri, a relation, into a sumti= , a=20 relatum. Further, a cmevla is said to be a word usable as a name ; but ev= ery=20 word is usable as a name, to this not quite what is wanted. And cmene is s= aid=20 to be a way of referring, rather than something that refers in a certain wa= y.=20 Sorting all this out seems a tedious task but maybe necessary, since I thi= nk=20 all of the usages mentioned here actually occur from time to time in the=20 literature. From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, November 13, 2010 9:13:03 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] mind map of lojban terms 2010/11/13 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 11:17 AM, Remo Dentato wrote= : >> >> I think I would skip {jufra} and {selsku}, I was trying to list those >> words that express lojbanic concepts. > > In that case, you may want to remove "cmene" and "valsi". There's > nothing especially lojbanic about them. Possibly "gadri" too. > > I know you don't mean this to be overly accurate, but the way "lerfu" > is often used in English it does not to mean "letter", but > "letter-word", or even "letter-phrase". We will say that "by" is a > lerfu, and that ".abu" is a lerfu, even though "by" is a word, not a > letter, and ".abu" is two words, not a letter. You're right. Actually {cmene} is there mainly to remind me the difference with {cmevla} and {valsi} to provide a branch for the different types of words. I've added {slaka bu} and {denpa bu}. I was wondering if also add {.y'y} ... The "thing to remember" in this case is that they are letters and not punctuation but this seems a little bit weak to me... I'll post a new version later, hoping for other comments to come. Thanks! --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.