From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDZtPvmBBoEZyebYg@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 13 10:35:21 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PHKwX-0007DD-T4; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:21 -0800 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf2903363wyb.16 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=IK5y98OXCYiE61UP3qK3r8VjlwtoMp3bWlDoPCWvIf4=; b=nrAnCgUh5lZATJ6YREj+eKdQEekEhR4qrelF4F1YwjqRa6TB1ZXch2jwZJ7ahmjjNk Ya0PujJTxrCQ9Z89QWFKn1Yq3v2xBr683gsgdrgPd5jj7tW3u/p5klhjbpqH2Psgk4IH tolO+/R+Jkl3VzbOpKBy3i8/8iLaHHOWU8APY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZqUETj9xLs4YYLEt6WO8y0pv5NANX76LNE6fG2x76GpROxFohQDJ2httT6F61cGx8+ 6AO/dPerA3uUIcTKgl+Q+Ew5ZY6pFXpxhowJNXUuuwD0ErmGJu3DhJ8yYgJq94GvF+qG e1kCQCNBlP3pRo8tMuDsftyp7rP6WD+rTGCW8= Received: by 10.216.237.89 with SMTP id x67mr599248weq.28.1289673305977; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.198.213 with SMTP id ep21ls1528755wbb.2.p; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.151.145 with SMTP id c17mr173793wbw.11.1289673304651; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.151.145 with SMTP id c17mr173792wbw.11.1289673304574; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w33si1464516wbd.2.2010.11.13.10.35.03; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by wyb39 with SMTP id 39so4431676wyb.16 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.144.65 with SMTP id y1mr4053278wbu.199.1289673303132; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.227.138.16 with HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:35:03 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <940499.93769.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <940499.93769.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:35:03 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] mind map of lojban terms From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > As usual, the problem seems to circle around the core. =A0A bridi is a > predicate, therefore =A0a word or phrase. =A0A selbri is then the abstrac= t entity, a > relation, to which the bridi refers (or, maybe. means). "bridi" is used in two different ways, which we may call syntactic and semantic. (1) The syntactic use is: lu mi citka lo cakla li'u bridi zo citka zo mi ce'o lu lo cakla li'u "mi citka lo cakla" is a bridi with selbri "citka" and argument sequence {"mi", "lo cakla"}. (2) The semantic use is: lo du'u mi citka lo cakla cu bridi lo ka ce'u citka ce'u kei mi ce'o lo cak= la That I eat chocolate predicates that the eating relationship exists between me and the chocolate. The most common one is (1), a bridi is a text that consists of one part called the selbri and several other parts called (together) the terbri. Sometimes you get a mix of the syntactic and semantic readings, but I don't think that makes much sense. The most often used of the three slots is "selbri", which almost always refers to a type of phrase. Examples of selbri being the texts "citka", "na citka", "go'i", "ci moi", "me la .djan.", etc. >=A0A sumti is then a > object which is involved in the selbri relation, a relatum. "sumti" is somewhat more complicated than "bridi", because it's place structure makes little sense compared to the way it is used. As used, a sumti is a phrase that can be used as one of the components in the terbri sequence. So examples of sumti are "mi", "lo cakla", "lo nu klama", etc. This has nothing to do with the official definition of "sumti", which requires a se sumti and a te sumti. If we were to ignore the usage, based on the place structure we could again have a syntactic and a semantic reading. (1) Syntactic use of "sumti": lu lo cakla li'u cu sumti zo citka li re "lo cakla" is the second argument of "citka". But what does that even mean? When, where is that true? Just in my example above, or is it some kind of universal truth? It's just nonsense. (2) Semantic use of "sumti": lo cakla cu sumti lo ka ce'u citka ce'u kei li re "Chocolate is what's eaten." Again, pretty nonsensical. So I really have no clue what "sumti" is supposed to mean as defined. I know how it is used: "x1 is a phrase that can be used to fill an argument place". "se sumti" and "te sumti" are never used. >=A0A brivla is a word that can serve as a bridi. True, but not a definition. "go'i" is also a word that can serve as a bridi, but it is not a brivla. A brivla is a morphological type of word, one that ends in a vowel and has penultimate stress and certain other restrictions that would be tedious to list here. There are three kinds of brivla: gismu, lujvo and fu'ivla, which are also morphological sub-classes. > The definition of 'tanru' is then suspect since it > groups words (brivla) to form not a phrase (bridi) but a relation (selbri= ). Again, the actual use of "tanru" is only concerned with the purely syntactic sense. A group of brivla is one kind of tanru, but there are others. For example "ci moi me ko'a" is a tanru but there are no brivla in it. The seltau is the cmavo phrase "ci moi" and the tertau is the cmavo phrase "me ko'a". > =A0Similarly, a gadri is said to transform a selbri, a relation, into a s= umti, a > relatum. That makes sense with the purely syntactic reading. "lo ... [ku]" transforms the the selbri "cakla" into the sumti "lo cakla [ku]". >=A0Further, a cmevla is said to be =A0a word usable as a name ; but every > word is usable as a name, to this not quite what is wanted. A cmevla is a morphological word, defined by its ending in a consonant. It is most often used as a name, but that is not its definition. >=A0And cmene is said > to be a way of referring, rather than something that refers in a certain = way. Right, a cmene is a word or group of words used to refer in a certain way. > =A0Sorting all this out seems a tedious task but maybe necessary, since I= think > all of the usages mentioned here actually occur from time to time in the > literature. Some day it may be sorted out, or maybe not. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.