From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCniPzmBBoE92JFlg@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 13 13:33:41 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PHNj6-0007w4-3C; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:40 -0800 Received: by ywj3 with SMTP id 3sf4012573ywj.16 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=FvPqN/1enwYV3ZVWZLk/4oxht7F7QpSYREz65nm7/6k=; b=4lg3M5w/TuaxXyypGlTGjx68M75B0jk9mJOK7ug9De4ZQR0qudNxyj8wD+aOf6gTpB YtEfqGIgdpwaTd50VDVahuCwSMYgSD6a7F73NxwZf/INNnjXfFMxFDCFUWxkRiel5YZN 1/y+X9962zQqFUnBu8CMELIy+4yF9Th0g7uw4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HpxZaLVJfgC4YL3jyRwiVFOhY9GmeJdvdEjvHhqQg7loutnpq7Pd4whjSmFrKeiQnZ jV3EkJmJagpbWWliN64O2IXKhf3UaiDcQS6uQLuvJ1UcNW6Y3T1Pn1q1NFu618zyqSBq fb9ousF6tYuoG+sDNLkgDdDxP3LKHU3I8ls2c= Received: by 10.90.99.20 with SMTP id w20mr311087agb.34.1289684007142; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.62.37 with SMTP id k37ls953848aga.2.p; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.59.3 with SMTP id h3mr1604973aga.11.1289684006519; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.90.59.3 with SMTP id h3mr1604972aga.11.1289684006507; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id j10si1116872yha.2.2010.11.13.13.33.25; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 21290 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Nov 2010 21:33:25 -0000 Message-ID: <949259.20194.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: BMZnghIVM1l0Pq43_L6aFCepiuyIMx4JMSCiWygXmt6gzQ4 OytU1oU_.tvrBb5.B3iNuQllBfsqRyKOkTspd.k_VrbpwSj8c4OOKVU7zA9b 6uK7CXdoOEqDuz.wqfelN80bJJKsNHKup2JokdKdu1eaHcG3rStjjdPRJLlK cv23NZ7ZBfDLhIkpT74lp.UL6PUB8LMIeqoDyJRVxbpxv4XS3b_YH2Oy.4ea 0fjq6ZxZEmx_wtImFfx9Ryyqwa0BpE5K9pQBrMinl.tAkpZKwC.8xqtN8N0d h2p6ACi7rNQiDe5PKnRZqLusWPskWNWnJdtjA5sftVm31O6hf1ywz2_pHT2. pE3Kg87zmnDX3iL6.xtwLFw8btSrcp97m2.jmo.hbR9mMjKTTpzbrLHUJ Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:24 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <940499.93769.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:33:24 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] mind map of lojban terms To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Not wrong, since usage is all over the place on these words, just confusing and perhaps confused. Going back to basics (I think, but there are other consistent ways to do this), most of these expressions refer to linguistic items, words or phrases. In this view. a bridi is a full clause, a predicate (selbri) with all its arguments (terbri) in place. A predicate may be a brivla (vowel final, penult stress, CC in first five letters not counting y and ', etc,) or a member of a select set of cmavo (little words, vowel final, on or two syllables, no inherent stress) (plus, often, suumti as well) or (and here we get a recursion to cover all the horrors that can arise) a tanru (two or more simple predicates in a matrix of combinatory forms). For simplicity, I'll assume all of the predicate is in this core cluster, ignoring various floating prepositions, which might strictly be included. The arguments are sumti (Noun Phrases -- except that 'sumti' is sometimes used to mean 'argument', leaving noun phrases that aren't arguments without a name. Of course, my way leaves arguments without a Lojban name, except terbri). Skipping recursion again, a sumti is either a cmevla (ends in a consonant) preceded by 'la' (a proper name) or one of another group of cmavo or a gadri (article -- another group of cmavo) or quantifier followed by a bridi less its first argument (and some other changes with regard to the other arguments) or much the same thing preceded by 'la' (a compound name). Selbri (predicates) refer to relations, sumti (NP) refer to things (in Lojban's generous sense). Simple predicates are gismu (defined basic predicatesCCVcv or CVCcv), lujvo (portmanteau words) , and fu'ivla (normalized borrowed words) (many rules apply to the two latter as to form and manner of construction). ----- Original Message ---- From: Remo Dentato To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, November 13, 2010 2:58:48 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] mind map of lojban terms On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 4:52 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > I smell a use-mention confusion here, though it is hard to pin down. xorxes is > quite careful in his remarks about 'lerfu', but some other points are less > clear. As usual, the problem seems to circle around the core. A bridi is a > predicate, therefore a word or phrase. A selbri is then the abstract entity, >a > relation, to which the bridi refers (or, maybe. means). A sumti is then a > object which is involved in the selbri relation, a relatum. A brivla is a word > that can serve as a bridi. Sorry John, in the text above I couldn't really follow you. I'm not even sure if you're saying that what I wrote is wrong or not. And in case it was wrong I can get how to make it right! > The definition of 'tanru' is then suspect since it > groups words (brivla) to form not a phrase (bridi) but a relation (selbri). In fact I said that a tanru is a selbri, not a brivla. What is wrong with that? > Similarly, a gadri is said to transform a selbri, a relation, into a sumti, a > relatum. Isn't it? I mean from the selbri {plise} I get the sumti {lo plise} don't I? > Further, a cmevla is said to be a word usable as a name ; but every > word is usable as a name, to this not quite what is wanted. Ok, maybe I get this. Would it be better if I say that a cmevla can *only* be used as name? > And cmene is said > to be a way of referring, rather than something that refers in a certain way. > Sorting all this out seems a tedious task but maybe necessary, since I think > all of the usages mentioned here actually occur from time to time in the > literature. I'll be happy to do it if you could give some more input. Please remember that a mind map (or a cheat sheet in genaral) is not meant to explain all the finest details but to be used as a reminder and to ease grasping the essential aspects of a topic. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.