From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCdoMDmBBoEnI-rUg@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 02 06:20:44 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDGn2-0004bJ-Lv; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:44 -0700 Received: by wyb38 with SMTP id 38sf4143090wyb.16 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ww60NBFrcOjfZ0PgXabIGDKzM0E1d+4bf7V5X5RsXgo=; b=O68uUWHd2njpAKYY3sjhaymxuQ7xKXAneYr4BaEeOOISzFlLDbNLhlDTT+GdgLcsIj ldOxb1eot/RmDve7IPrfYBnL6RlffsVKyfL95VItlbYE3IHHO1ottknisKvZZrYsCqRs Gob8/zcVD705FPP7I48ive4YddPXyiylpwTh8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=sGyYJyqhIkEd8RDpVhXKgzz+Lz+do938NZ/exeGc/10tq0qpqrV8k4CYjGBTZ2aS61 g0XY5jNYaVeUzTEgHHI7o8ACQuQmhKHyrFc96TTuAzzjRvjbhtH66JpuwyJOq+0Sl/FB D7jYfqZdYyLwutfCxRqnMnRHKh7zISqcaPcz8= Received: by 10.216.87.2 with SMTP id x2mr177033wee.1.1288704029512; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.5.203 with SMTP id 53ls40348wel.3.p; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.199 with SMTP id y49mr53023wes.5.1288704028378; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.199 with SMTP id y49mr53022wes.5.1288704028348; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f173.google.com (mail-wy0-f173.google.com [74.125.82.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id q48si619843wek.14.2010.11.02.06.20.27; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.173; Received: by wyj26 with SMTP id 26so7109555wyj.4 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.227.133.140 with SMTP id f12mr4333593wbt.139.1288704027079; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 06:20:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.32.140 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2010 06:20:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <407677.11990.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <407677.11990.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:20:27 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A summary on 'djica' etc. From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:34 PM, John E. Clifford wr= ote: > > 2, =A0There is in Lojban, as in many languages, a grammatical process cal= led raising, by which a term in a subordinate position is brought into a hi= gher clause. =A0It may come to replace that subordinate clause or to fill a= nother position in superordinate clause. The definition in wikipedia doesn't say anything about replacement. Lojban is full of predicates with sumti raising of the "in another position" type. I don't think the replacement move works in Lojban as a purely grammatical move. Using "tu'a ko'a" as short for "lo nu ko'a co'e" is not replacement, because "ko'a" is not being raised there. The case of "jai broda" is not replacement either, because "jai broda" and "broda" are two different predicates. >=A0This is a sort of reverse of the process of eliding information that is= repeated, when it is "obvious". So, in "I'm thinking of buying a car" we d= on't mention that it is me buying the car; that's obvious. =A0But similarly= , I might report those same thought as "I am thinking about a car", raising= "a car" from the clause "that I buy a car" (in there at some level) to rep= lace it. But you are talking of a semantic move here, not a syntactic one, right? "mi pensi lo karce" is not a version of "mi pensi tu'a lo karce", the way "mi pensi tu'a lo karce" is just a compact way of saying "mi pensi lo nu lo karce cu co'e". > 5. =A0[...]=A0We need a particular apple which is the one I desire. =A0[.= ..] What frustrates me a bit is that one day you say you understand my point about events not solving this "problem" at all, and the next day you are back again presenting events as a "solution". If you have a problem with "mi djica lo plise", you should have the exact same problem with "mi djica lo plisynuncti". If you can't want apples without there being a particular one you want then you also can't want apple-eatings without there being a particular one you want. If you have no problem with wanting apple-eatings, you shouldn't have a problem with wanting apples. Apple-eatings are just as subject to the type-token distinction (or whatever you want to call it) as apples are. > Of course, this problem does not arise if you pick your apple before hand= , as it were, in this story before going to the alternates. And yet you don't need to pick your apple-eating before hand? Apple-eatings can be just as distinguishable and individuated as apples. Suppose there are three apples on the table, and there are two apple-eatings in the room. If I say I want an apple, you feel compelled to ask me which one I'm talking about, why don't you feel the same compulsion if I say I want an apple-eating? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.