From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARC_tMDmBBoEFG7G4g@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 02 07:03:59 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDHSr-000103-6Q; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:59 -0700 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf329447pxi.16 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=aBdeGm1edeYwk8v6vBLE9SrP0CLcbfjcPL08cjbpNCs=; b=WkLWvSlRxB6OVxJNdeYQPutgl0wTN+djNdDWMX3Brxi7d2rbtdzg6zXbRVnk++h+37 u/UGo3KHwtfi5CEqimWeJ0Dd4WYwTz4ki5lOldn3GrXKt5Z+JiJHZOV/BGO7G8a76Cmg hRUpU5O5KCCdKkKpGnOA3cM93jcnYCUyH0+9s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=cRc9kqbqt7AYw7yjfA6YBeWKNU4RnDrqgo9G0cpxXBJKSgQ6PHnb5iAKD/lcOVI6mp ERqfy6xI3iVD6cYWxfL1rxGg9DAUn1uxJX0AjJ3kL5mB7ipSMSK5qYM+Xhg6Ri89pW5f FsZA0qkY+EF++BDwbA3LfeJmi/N6yz9wQD+us= Received: by 10.143.26.28 with SMTP id d28mr254298wfj.0.1288706623333; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.249.41 with SMTP id w41ls155159wfh.1.p; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.158.8 with SMTP id g8mr4445967wfe.0.1288706622679; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.158.8 with SMTP id g8mr4445965wfe.0.1288706622648; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f175.google.com (mail-pv0-f175.google.com [74.125.83.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id n6si12655712wfl.3.2010.11.02.07.03.41; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.175; Received: by pva4 with SMTP id 4so938553pva.34 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:39 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.57.9 with SMTP id f9mr6104950wfa.108.1288706619445; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 07:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.71.13 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2010 07:03:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <407677.11990.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 10:03:39 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A summary on 'djica' etc. From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636e9078b4591eb049412641f --001636e9078b4591eb049412641f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...Gah, random gripe: give {su'u} some love! mu'o mi'e latros. 2010/11/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:34 PM, John E. Clifford > wrote: > > > > 2, There is in Lojban, as in many languages, a grammatical process > called raising, by which a term in a subordinate position is brought into= a > higher clause. It may come to replace that subordinate clause or to fill > another position in superordinate clause. > > The definition in wikipedia doesn't say anything about replacement. > Lojban is full of predicates with sumti raising of the "in another > position" type. I don't think the replacement move works in Lojban as > a purely grammatical move. Using "tu'a ko'a" as short for "lo nu ko'a > co'e" is not replacement, because "ko'a" is not being raised there. > The case of "jai broda" is not replacement either, because "jai broda" > and "broda" are two different predicates. > > > This is a sort of reverse of the process of eliding information that is > repeated, when it is "obvious". So, in "I'm thinking of buying a car" we > don't mention that it is me buying the car; that's obvious. But similarl= y, > I might report those same thought as "I am thinking about a car", raising= "a > car" from the clause "that I buy a car" (in there at some level) to repla= ce > it. > > But you are talking of a semantic move here, not a syntactic one, > right? "mi pensi lo karce" is not a version of "mi pensi tu'a lo > karce", the way "mi pensi tu'a lo karce" is just a compact way of > saying "mi pensi lo nu lo karce cu co'e". > > > 5. [...] We need a particular apple which is the one I desire. [...] > > What frustrates me a bit is that one day you say you understand my > point about events not solving this "problem" at all, and the next day > you are back again presenting events as a "solution". > > If you have a problem with "mi djica lo plise", you should have the > exact same problem with "mi djica lo plisynuncti". If you can't want > apples without there being a particular one you want then you also > can't want apple-eatings without there being a particular one you > want. If you have no problem with wanting apple-eatings, you shouldn't > have a problem with wanting apples. Apple-eatings are just as subject > to the type-token distinction (or whatever you want to call it) as > apples are. > > > Of course, this problem does not arise if you pick your apple before > hand, as it were, in this story before going to the alternates. > > And yet you don't need to pick your apple-eating before hand? > Apple-eatings can be just as distinguishable and individuated as > apples. > > Suppose there are three apples on the table, and there are two > apple-eatings in the room. If I say I want an apple, you feel > compelled to ask me which one I'm talking about, why don't you feel > the same compulsion if I say I want an apple-eating? > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636e9078b4591eb049412641f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ...Gah, random gripe: give {su'u} some love!

mu'o mi'e l= atros.
2010/11/2 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Mon, Nov 1, 2010 at 11:34 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> 2, =A0There is in Lojban, as in many languages, a grammatical process = called raising, by which a term in a subordinate position is brought into a= higher clause. =A0It may come to replace that subordinate clause or to fil= l another position in superordinate clause.

The definition in wikipedia doesn't say anything about replacemen= t.
Lojban is full of predicates with sumti raising of the "in another
position" type. I don't think the replacement move works in Lojban= as
a purely grammatical move. Using "tu'a ko'a" as short for= "lo nu ko'a
co'e" is not replacement, because "ko'a" is not bein= g raised there.
The case of "jai broda" is not replacement either, because "= jai broda"
and "broda" are two different predicates.

>=A0This is a sort of reverse of the process of eliding information that= is repeated, when it is "obvious". So, in "I'm thinking= of buying a car" we don't mention that it is me buying the car; t= hat's obvious. =A0But similarly, I might report those same thought as &= quot;I am thinking about a car", raising "a car" from the cl= ause "that I buy a car" (in there at some level) to replace it.
But you are talking of a semantic move here, not a syntactic one,
right? "mi pensi lo karce" is not a version of "mi pensi tu&= #39;a lo
karce", the way "mi pensi tu'a lo karce" is just a compa= ct way of
saying "mi pensi lo nu lo karce cu co'e".

> 5. =A0[...]=A0We need a particular apple which is the one I desire. = =A0[...]

What frustrates me a bit is that one day you say you understand my
point about events not solving this "problem" at all, and the nex= t day
you are back again presenting events as a "solution".

If you have a problem with "mi djica lo plise", you should have t= he
exact same problem with "mi djica lo plisynuncti". If you can'= ;t want
apples without there being a particular one you want then you also
can't want apple-eatings without there being a particular one you
want. If you have no problem with wanting apple-eatings, you shouldn't<= br> have a problem with wanting apples. Apple-eatings are just as subject
to the type-token distinction (or whatever you want to call it) as
apples are.

> Of course, this problem does not arise if you pick your apple before h= and, as it were, in this story before going to the alternates.

And yet you don't need to pick your apple-eating before hand?
Apple-eatings can be just as distinguishable and individuated as
apples.

Suppose there are three apples on the table, and there are two
apple-eatings in the room. If I say I want an apple, you feel
compelled to ask me which one I'm talking about, why don't you feel=
the same compulsion if I say I want an apple-eating?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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