From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCPqp_nBBoE1XSzXA@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 20 06:03:10 2010 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PJo1z-0006jY-Fm; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 06:03:10 -0800 Received: by wyb35 with SMTP id 35sf292786wyb.16 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 06:03:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received :sender:received:date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZVAiIgWvsgyrKjnpMQ2Rp2h4Jz7rcFdFFiMFmOeJGoA=; b=waBHfN3fDTIcIA9eEy5wyZzBkXGpSxSCBIyc/CDMFtTfXmCt3WMzKLVaDIpgbTDf6D REXN73+gCyvnTIQQZ6tROmlaLKGgLZpZaCOLKXld2CX9FwWMfnpJITOUR60FVnc8kgTw VHtaRgDaXGnmAIqEaLuEy5Pj0qySbGvV5diwc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:date:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=EHK29uElK1slT88E5PHS5ad4xxgiwmGn+BTL/R8TAfO1ENuz2unZlgV8QusYObkmK3 PIpl7eQZUgNiAMbrYB5ZFl620DS355Q8ajgCMfY1abjqqutIin6y5u60zsIrBoaeIr1o DJosVDbfWyQVk+D/dFxxoqyZheUWsbUDvM30A= Received: by 10.217.3.203 with SMTP id r53mr403860wes.21.1290261775577; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 06:02:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.79.7 with SMTP id h7ls1441221wee.1.p; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 06:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.36.21 with SMTP id v21mr157689wea.4.1290261774325; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 06:02:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.163.68 with SMTP id z46mr21076wek.0.1290260666536; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.216.163.68 with SMTP id z46mr21075wek.0.1290260666467; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:44:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wy0-f177.google.com (mail-wy0-f177.google.com [74.125.82.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y10si289516wes.10.2010.11.20.05.44.25; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:44:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.177; Received: by mail-wy0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 22so5540314wyf.22 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:44:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.255.199 with SMTP id j49mr2896014wes.110.1290260663671; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:44:23 -0800 (PST) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.132.229 with HTTP; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 05:44:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:44:23 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] non-clausal ke'a From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 What could this mean: [.i] mi ke'a citka I suppose it's syntactically valid. But what relativised sumti could it refer to? Would it make more sense if it followed another sentence: mi viska lo plise .i mi ke'a citka Could we say that this {mi ke'a citka} is a sentential expansion of a clause that could describe {lo plise}, as in this: mi viska lo plise poi mi ke'a citka I'm asking this as I've been thinking about the difference between "le/la/les" and "en" in French: Je vois une pomme. Je la mange. (I see an apple. I eat it.) mi viska pa plise .i mi ri citka Je vois des pommes. Je les mange. (I see apples. I eat them.) mi viska su'o plise .i mi ri citka Je vois des pommes. J'en mange. (I see apples. I eat "of them".) mi viska su'o plise .i mi ___ citka http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/en#French http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_personal_pronouns#The_pronoun_en Would {ri/ra/ru} alone be an accurate translation of "en", which differs from "le/la/les" in the referent's quantity (i.e. whereas "Je la mange." means that the whole of the object is eaten, "J'en mange." doesn't imply such an entirety)? My guess is that {su'o ri}, that is {su'o su'o plise}, would be more accurate than a bare {ri}. But I also vaguely feel that "en" might have something to do more with relativising "ke'a" than with back-counting "ri/ra/ru" (or the lerfu solution, for that matter -- "py" in this case). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. 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