From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDBtaDnBBoEBeKCNA@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 20 11:00:33 2010 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PJsfl-0007Ou-JY; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:33 -0800 Received: by gyh4 with SMTP id 4sf3885514gyh.16 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=o7T1ZfHTFP4I0+upKIEoP8uXiWMBfVdeeve6AgBPuxE=; b=iYHH+kJsjNbMCdlCV075i5EZL+WQfi9l/02NIWWwbnOtglh5ekx0zKUs50icvCg8uP APz+7C0Pj+mUUgNO/9BvDOkqlFnZgJcBIY2U+cMM+/By15VUf3c7oomv0+rPaL4R1fGl 4QWObo/QKogPeyb/wR/XurmQPrr3HHrPcJIaI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=igU8PoLPEtswKB2kXqpMvSl1V0U1T9UQCrJ1UGtOlIlM/rZJdAvviJKEkFupqLtrkH UsKCnTaT9vWOt+vc2LywBUx1vGOWRFfLDIErjBp8t3uaej2ajRxGKXWMP36U9UNZ/0kI aJ9bXgLz9ihP/dRB/bCMeAK22icdMtyI27RI4= Received: by 10.150.167.3 with SMTP id p3mr363293ybe.23.1290279617104; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.133.8 with SMTP id k8ls2125938ybn.4.p; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.189.2 with SMTP id m2mr947978ybf.50.1290279615981; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.189.2 with SMTP id m2mr947977ybf.50.1290279615955; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.121]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id g4si441756yha.3.2010.11.20.11.00.14; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:14 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.121; Received: (qmail 33810 invoked by uid 60001); 20 Nov 2010 19:00:08 -0000 Message-ID: <488884.33457.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: g4kR3r4VM1kPEEIpJnlSpdSd8_6X9sly.AqZgxxn7eCbhNY iUVuYDIHYY8U7OVQMhkj7UrThaRT..4Hyp9OhtWPTe7cQ4TJrd8HnTcKNEcQ 98B2q0Kl7TyUfTINY9Th58jyCHhix30xGO1kOQtcwnoIMsSopiHfN4wAceKc QGaA4XKwBWffQegtatSshouLE5dm_Jt6M5cqbRSxCt3LrK4tdKtimgu.yNMK Atnt1KD5i9gEzhfLTQ_GlFTsmFor.bAWR0VoYG.VQNK_uNZHQeXCgB7MwfHy cq8UdiQDs_PugYI3MIAIxFqIttoDc4JkjaRmkIl3ChrKe1GYqTuDQ1A3j_Rf QXhTGVyBkLGbnDvF4LvcudcGFAfFFwucwa3emJe0PGkqFCorBInEmvT63 Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:06 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/504.5 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: <369894.93543.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 11:00:06 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-clausal ke'a To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.121 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was going to note that, in the expanded form, though not the original, an= other=20 approach would be just to extent the scope of the 'da'. but again, the 'no'= case=20 rather cuts into that, and, indeed, reference back to a no case seems alway= s to=20 be peculiar -- or to point to the more general suggestion you make, which s= eems=20 to cover all the possibilities (until we consider other quantifiers with=20 overlapping scopes). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, November 20, 2010 12:01:20 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-clausal ke'a On Sat, Nov 20, 2010 at 2:40 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > The other possibility, which also has some support in logic (or at least > discourse analysis) would be that 'ri' picks up 'le su'o lo plise' or som= e=20 such > construction, which does not actually occur but refers to the right thing= s, > i.e., the apples on the table in this case. Yes, that's what I meant by: > In this particular case, you may say that it's obvious that "ri" > should pick just those members of the domain of quantificationj that > make "mi viska da" true, but if the context is slightly more complex, > this won't always work. The most obvious case where it doesn't work is when the quantifier is "no" instead of "su'o", since "ri" can hardly be expected to pick up "lo no lo plise". In: mi viska no lo plise .i ki'u bo ri se mipri "I saw none of the apples, because they were hidden." I expect "ri" to pick "the apples", not "the none of the apples that I saw"= . But that's not the only problematic case. If "su'o" is in turn within the scope of some other quantifier, there can be trouble too. I guess pragmatically it is inevitable that people will use "ri" and such to point to "(lo) su'o..." even when there is no actual "lo" in the antecedent, but I prefer the rule to be that "ri" looks for an actual sumti, and any pragmatic deviation from that is just a pragmatic deviation. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.