From lojban+bncCNTPpI2KGxCx4aDnBBoE7S3FSQ@googlegroups.com Sat Nov 20 12:34:08 2010 Received: from mail-px0-f189.google.com ([209.85.212.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PJu8K-0005Nc-Vh; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:34:08 -0800 Received: by pxi19 with SMTP id 19sf452962pxi.16 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:33:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:received:received:from:to:subject:date:user-agent :references:in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; bh=/BNpd3KCUiYAQNw7bpE8XBVOMWD3dTrVddXAI12tF40=; b=P3Ruhk5ceJk+Uim/r91AQLq3ySNd4pCwv7GfXUf0g9Irq+3hB4RoCp9Jtew4lBCoMW zYpMmoG4H9Yh/L8KaEfRFEaDC5WQxbJmInccAfwG8nMOU3Z8g0iadqyp6Uf93qoSPrhp 4Y8yvlcK07gEmr1B3iH/7V16RiXmHPoJ2klMs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-authority-analysis:x-cloudmark-score :x-originating-ip:from:to:subject:date:user-agent:references :in-reply-to:mime-version:message-id:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-transfer-encoding :content-disposition; b=HquiMAdE6cFp4jMiT8wIKI5jdhJk9gHyh3kR+HHtSt+BbGehlnAdtBgVx5GSJTKeio AGA+4iU9kBuYEwrC+nnBdt6rcrsFn5a/7MrudnkbHSsqgKv8PlplyGUwFZbCXFbNpyB0 TyVDXY59NB5ZfQ4j8hsqy+ghZIyRpF6mFQB/0= Received: by 10.142.250.38 with SMTP id x38mr166687wfh.59.1290285233418; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:33:53 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.78.15 with SMTP id a15ls5945535wfb.2.p; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.135.18 with SMTP id i18mr2297377wfd.22.1290285232492; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.135.18 with SMTP id i18mr2297376wfd.22.1290285232465; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:33:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com (cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com [75.180.132.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id f13si4634130wfo.4.2010.11.20.12.33.51; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 12:33:51 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) client-ip=75.180.132.123; X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.1 cv=pepdxKapwHuwCZNFD5uob2wvham6E+RljB0uXw08FdQ= c=1 sm=0 a=rUfjlzrtBHgA:10 a=wPDyFdB5xvgA:10 a=8nJEP1OIZ-IA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:17 a=1Qhj-OTkAAAA:8 a=8pif782wAAAA:8 a=CCQxVG8j2r4TfCL1dgIA:9 a=0o5yrRr7HI4b84bJ4Ve4FrPNF5MA:4 a=wPNLvfGTeEIA:10 a=9o99xeNKNPYSmM5t9x5+TQ==:117 X-Cloudmark-Score: 0 X-Originating-IP: 75.176.118.168 Received: from [75.176.118.168] ([75.176.118.168:47349] helo=chausie) by cdptpa-oedge03.mail.rr.com (envelope-from ) (ecelerity 2.2.3.46 r()) with ESMTP id B6/EE-19545-EA038EC4; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 20:33:50 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFF71BD7 for ; Sat, 20 Nov 2010 15:33:49 -0500 (EST) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] non-clausal ke'a Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 15:33:44 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <201011201533.46931.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Original-Sender: phma@phma.optus.nu X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 75.180.132.123 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of phma@phma.optus.nu) smtp.mail=phma@phma.optus.nu Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Saturday 20 November 2010 08:44:23 tijlan wrote: > What could this mean: > > [.i] mi ke'a citka It's syntactically valid, but it's nonsense, just like "du ra'o", "te.u",= =20 and "pe naku". It's like saying "Which I eat.", except that "which"=20 corresponds to "poi ... ke'a" together. (Hebrew and Modern Greek have a wor= d=20 like "poi", but no special pronoun like "ke'a".) > I'm asking this as I've been thinking about the difference between > "le/la/les" and "en" in French: > > Je vois une pomme. Je la mange. > (I see an apple. I eat it.) > mi viska pa plise .i mi ri citka > > Je vois des pommes. Je les mange. > (I see apples. I eat them.) > mi viska su'o plise .i mi ri citka > > Je vois des pommes. J'en mange. > (I see apples. I eat "of them".) > mi viska su'o plise .i mi ___ citka > > http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/en#French > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_personal_pronouns#The_pronoun_en > > Would {ri/ra/ru} alone be an accurate translation of "en", which > differs from "le/la/les" in the referent's quantity (i.e. whereas "Je > la mange." means that the whole of the object is eaten, "J'en mange." > doesn't imply such an entirety)? My guess is that {su'o ri}, that is > {su'o su'o plise}, would be more accurate than a bare {ri}. But I also > vaguely feel that "en" might have something to do more with > relativising "ke'a" than with back-counting "ri/ra/ru" (or the lerfu > solution, for that matter -- "py" in this case). I'd say "mi su'o ri citka", but this pronoun is peculiar to French, Occitan= (I=20 think), and Catalan and is bound to cause some trouble in translating. Pierre --=20 When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.