From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC4_LvmBBoE6G_gSw@googlegroups.com Mon Nov 01 10:52:09 2010 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PCyYA-0000TV-5R; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:52:09 -0700 Received: by gwj20 with SMTP id 20sf9904556gwj.16 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:52:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=KMDJeu1zLinHlJb2R8S+cMiobben3v4iAR7ENPeMTWI=; b=tipnsriWitavZOOBpHJ0ikGsRxzgG81wt+nWYlkrGwEYNnxvHlRBExV/angIPe3yGM YHUbO35USUy3hWk8xDMn0LSi9iRs7D/IBvN0Y6ZCRglvAV8wDdQ4HRB5AD9q1ITMevLJ zyxnMrdHi5bHHJirA6eVsjmm4pKUt0I8xNvTY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Qv6FEdDLBwzz0rQzCa1RL5dm2hJoe3RL++Q5uGt0vtwytdyBcY80zf5EdwFdIlcu0g tcKiXPTpOKHVx6EUqRWUlX/VPtA9VNMrVFE+xqIDReFRP3iq8XVqid9LR6GgMmwjJXWF ac7Sr4ysgdauMJRCsY3IC7iIU6dxjVHs6kbqA= Received: by 10.151.17.2 with SMTP id u2mr2331436ybi.10.1288633912613; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.85.5 with SMTP id n5ls3432607ybl.2.p; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.145.6 with SMTP id x6mr3972957ybn.34.1288633911532; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.145.6 with SMTP id x6mr3972954ybn.34.1288633911490; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yx0-f175.google.com (mail-yx0-f175.google.com [209.85.213.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w3si2481874ybe.13.2010.11.01.10.51.50; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.213.175; Received: by mail-yx0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 42so3740215yxe.34 for ; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.225.199 with SMTP id it7mr12263610qcb.33.1288633910102; Mon, 01 Nov 2010 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.219.14 with HTTP; Mon, 1 Nov 2010 10:51:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <545421.75908.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <43c4b5ca-0867-48ed-b8bc-6d6da12ecc77@n3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> <545421.75908.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 13:51:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.213.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163630f211750d2c0494017691 --00163630f211750d2c0494017691 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 But I thought that precisely what da'i does? (And remember, I'm not a linguist. If I'm wrong, please explain this to me in baby terms) --gejyspa On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Nice, but your 2 is merely a (truth functional) biconditional, not a > counterfactual (non-truth functional) conditional. Counterfactual involve > moving into the subjunctive or setting up alternate worlds, not just > mucking > aout with truth function in this one. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Lindar > To: lojban > Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:37:07 PM > Subject: [lojban] Re: Counterfactual Conditions > > > (1) is an indicative conditional > Expressed with the appropriate mu'i/ki'u/ri'a/bai/etc. > > > (2) is a counterfactual conditional > > .o/jo/gu'o/gi'e/go > > If I understand it correctly, one necessitates the other in this > instance. > > Where {.i ganai carvi gi mi bevri lo santa} says that I carry the > umbrella if it rains, {.i go carvi gi mi bevri lo santa} says that if > it rains, I bring my umbrella, and if I bring my umbrella, it rains. > (Feel free to correct me on this.) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00163630f211750d2c0494017691 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 But I thought that precisely what da'i does?=A0 (And remember,= I'm not a linguist.=A0 If I'm wrong, please explain this to me in = baby terms)
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 6:14 PM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
Nice, but your 2 is merely a (tr= uth functional) biconditional, not a
counterfactual (non-truth functiona= l) conditional. =A0Counterfactual involve
moving into the subjunctive or setting up alternate worlds, not just muckin= g
aout with truth function in this one.


----- Original Message ----
From: Lindar <<= a href=3D"mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com">lindarthebard@yahoo.com>To: lojban <lojban@googlegr= oups.com>
Sent: Thu, October 28, 2010 4:37:07 PM
Subject: [lojban] Re: Counterfact= ual Conditions

> (1) is an indicative conditional
Expressed wi= th the appropriate mu'i/ki'u/ri'a/bai/etc.

> (2) is a= counterfactual conditional

.o/jo/gu'o/gi'e/go

If I understand it correctly, one nec= essitates the other in this
instance.

Where {.i ganai carvi gi mi= bevri lo santa} says that I carry the
umbrella if it rains, {.i go carv= i gi mi bevri lo santa} says that if
it rains, I bring my umbrella, and if I bring my umbrella, it rains.
(Fe= el free to correct me on this.)

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