From lojban+bncCJGY6cDlFhCGqsHmBBoEKeKDtw@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 02 11:14:47 2010 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDLNY-0001fb-EA; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:45 -0700 Received: by fxm13 with SMTP id 13sf1728008fxm.16 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:mime-version:received :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cY5D0HG9JsjuV7FzdNzsMm71nBW6pTIDKMT/G+WimD8=; b=1495ZPmg/8Ef3fUj+CAOrUtwgQ9HoXJ+c2cgp8lxXyglj4i5Eh0K/z4MOd2avBNTnU JrjQ1ON93T3BSBq29INRo3KPw2Rdc2SkLXgVkALitDyKuCFU3+DYa4l8hDdrVf2BCxrO rOVQZvPlubv9Rzb/zWuEsTD7BGD1ZMFcz8kC8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WE86Bazu/zXzZxLDpPc9KQRRJyW5UHqsvSuxzFCqIMO8HAal0jm0q07WkNzMB0X2h0 OV1TNBFp6wmsV6ICOkPUMUygaMjybC/DzqoNVuMAH1g5DnYqOSSOe5PRgUlMQz25/dSx 1Kies/F8m+v4rl6PidDL2xR6G9jP1EpSGJUTA= Received: by 10.223.123.130 with SMTP id p2mr386512far.29.1288721670036; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.137.193 with SMTP id x1ls135678bkt.0.p; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.197 with SMTP id p5mr953800bkw.12.1288721668888; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.154.197 with SMTP id p5mr953799bkw.12.1288721668781; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f42.google.com (mail-bw0-f42.google.com [209.85.214.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id w9si3320551bkz.0.2010.11.02.11.14.27; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.42; Received: by bwz13 with SMTP id 13so9821077bwz.15 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.46.33 with SMTP id h33mr14902501bkf.95.1288721667563; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:14:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.117.10 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:14:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <995110.82874.qm@web81303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Oren Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:14:06 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: get.oren@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of get.oren@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=get.oren@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d77f5235a4c1049415e53f --0016e6d77f5235a4c1049415e53f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept what sorts of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include all the 'oblique' sumti places as well? Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be considered semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one can drink?" If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was referring to these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily point to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class and that selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of judgement should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With a vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into regular sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't have this resource. So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensicality. That is, for bajra: bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 Now account for baseline sensicality: x1 must-be agent... x2 must-be material... x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... x4 must-be manner... Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality tags' for sumti positions are like '*keyhole definitions*' that only these explicit classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of ' *key definitions*' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can sensically 'fill.' x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... x3 can-act-as body-part... x4 can-act-as idea... Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred less frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have a list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) series of 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degree of 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a minimal spanning sensible sentence for a set of words). You could even develop a kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific text-editor: as you begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' suggestions could come up in a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd totally code that! But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come up with technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather and manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. co'o mi'e korbi On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford wrote: > > Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor exceptions, > he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" language. Sorry you think this > discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications of Lojvan > being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the language > part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to conflict. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Lindar > To: lojban > Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM > Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra > > Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > > > Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i > broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. For > all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. > > (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) > > xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, > why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to > Lojban? > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Oren Robinson (315) 569-2888 102 Morrison Ave Somerville, MA 02144 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d77f5235a4c1049415e53f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re: "Again, the important thi= ng is which individual places accept what=A0sorts of arguments. The gismu i= tself just relates those places."

So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid info= rmation, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include all the = 'oblique' sumti places as well?

Re:&= quot;Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme}=A0would also be considere= d semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the=A0sort of thing that one= can drink?"

If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definiti= ons, why shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material= states ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why= I was referring to these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originall= y. As long as people can easily point to a construction and say "accor= ding to this sumti's implied class and that selbri's meaning, this = makes no sense," I think that type of judgement should have a clear li= tmus test. And there's nothing stopping us. With a vocabulary of less t= han 1500 words, many of which fall into regular sub-classes in the thesauru= s, I see no reason why we shouldn't have this resource.

So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sum= ti position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensicalit= y. That is, for bajra:

bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 w= ith gait x4

Now account for baseline sensicality:

x1 must-be agent...
x2 = must-be material...
x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part...
x4 m= ust-be manner...

Now let's envision that these clearly specified= 'baseline sensicality tags' for sumti positions are like 'k= eyhole definitions' that only these explicit classes can fit. Now, = each sumti position also gets any number of 'key definitions'= ; for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can sensically 'fil= l.'

x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete...
= x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface...
x3 can-act-as body-pa= rt...
x4 can-act-as idea...

Now, if we do this for every gis= mu, I imagine we'd end up with many high-frequency tags like "agen= t" and "material," and several hundred less frequent tags li= ke "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have = a list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of= sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role.

This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) = series of 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a seri= es of new applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the = degree of 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatic= ally generate sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even gene= rate a=A0minimal spanning =A0sensible sentence=A0for a set of wor= ds). You could even develop a kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-s= pecific text-editor: as you begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensic= al' suggestions could come up in a tooltip window. If we get this data,= I'd totally code that!

But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data s= et. Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll= come up with technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to= gather and manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github= .

co'o mi'e korbi

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Cli= fford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Well, xorxes has ideas about h= ow Lojban *does* work, and, with minor exceptions,
> he has got it right. =A0So Lojban is his "other" language. = =A0Sorry you think this
> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to wo= rk out the ramifications of Lojvan
> being a logical language, dealin= g with both the logical part and the language
> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to conf= lict.
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----> From: Lindar <lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
> To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9= :55:04 AM
> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
>
> O= ren, I answered your question some two or three times.
>
>
> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks f= or {nu}, {.i
> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -i= s- an event. For
> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary.
>
> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now)<= br>>
> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban sho= uld work,
> why don't you just make your -own- language and let i= t stand up to
> Lojban?
>
> --
> You received this message because y= ou are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscri= be@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message b= ecause you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://grou= ps.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>



--
Oren Robinson
(315) 569-2888
102 Morrison A= ve
Somerville, MA 02144

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016e6d77f5235a4c1049415e53f--