From lojban+bncCMqBsa7nERCcoLHnBBoECpmSxw@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 23 15:37:15 2010 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PL2QA-00066I-EG; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:37:15 -0800 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19sf1278608gxk.16 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=m2P7fEIi3nPhoyf66qKWPmG+ckzW1o7Pj8xrVtWbceM=; b=MmIz4Kj87tZNtnM34sQIgzLfprGNbhxotd5XomeqGpb8mwIesyVkT73Wzwl8CGfaD1 q9fcxeHAxs2DY3l8sZCyFs+8HsgU52aapoKC760fibx9IaKyd0n80M3PDfNWcwjVYudn zdGqdFBstb2FCWV4X0NT5Xianuhl4p+EDq8fM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=f7RcAYSDGQg37z3hePAUvV1UbCt40xeWYCVmNGwTsey0yXhX9T5fhNjVGx+HfinWe0 DAe2M1hKwHiBeu8NfspF8mvkd0Ty2OCxt0792ZFeD0OfCdhWOSB0VJNHLgQXHf2BCNGr oQ8M8ds9sCu/tCs02Zq1su6xoR6n5/mqWl/vE= Received: by 10.151.135.12 with SMTP id m12mr793990ybn.53.1290555420749; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:37:00 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.231.3 with SMTP id d3ls1439052anh.7.p; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.109.17 with SMTP id h17mr1413113anc.46.1290555420038; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.109.17 with SMTP id h17mr1413110anc.46.1290555419996; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gw0-f49.google.com (mail-gw0-f49.google.com [74.125.83.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x37si13231ana.2.2010.11.23.15.36.58; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.49; Received: by gwj18 with SMTP id 18so2622998gwj.36 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:36:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.11.200 with SMTP id u8mr8769489ibu.123.1290555418030; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.16.139 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:36:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20101123232644.GJ10838@alice.local> References: <20101123184352.GE10838@alice.local> <20101123185211.GU9301@digitalkingdom.org> <20101123190157.GG10838@alice.local> <20101123232644.GJ10838@alice.local> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:36:57 +1100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] rp-expression-tail ordered choice with empty grouping From: Ross Ogilvie To: lojban X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022152d69594132690495c0d9ed --0022152d69594132690495c0d9ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Ahh, I started with xorxes' proposal ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=MEX+grammar+proposal ) and have been tweaking and extending. But it should be largely backward compatible hopefully. Like I said, I don't want to build it up before I know it works (or mostly works). mi'e ros On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:26 AM, .alyn.post. < alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > I'm interested. > > Is this compatible with the current grammar? What is it that you > mean when you say "playing around?" > > -Alan > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:17:42AM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote: > > I've been playing around with the mekso grammar recently. I think I > have a > > rewrite, but I want to finish coding and check that it works as I want > it > > to. I'll post tomorrow or the day after if people are interested. > > > > mi'e ros > > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:01 AM, .alyn.post. > > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:52:11AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:43:52AM -0700, .alyn.post. wrote: > > > > What does the following production in the lojban grammar mean?: > > > > > > > > rp-expression-tail <- rp-expression operator rp-expression-tail > / > > > > () > > > > > > > > Do I understand that to mean 'the sequence of rp-expression, > > > > operator, and rp-expression-tail OR nothing?' Could the above > > > > also be expressed: > > > > > > > > rp-expression-tail <- (rp-expression operator > rp-expression-tail)? > > > > > > > > And if so, why the odd way of specifying it? I'm weak on > pitfalls > > > > of recursive behavior in grammars, am I looking at a workaround > > > > related to that? > > > > > > Yes, and it mostly doesn't work. Lojban's RPN (which, if I have my > > > druthers, the next version of the language will not have, by the > > > way) is left-recursive, which is problematic. See the peg mailing > > > list for various solutions, but IMO since a number of PEG parser > > > generators handle this on their own, I think we should just have > it > > > be left-recursive and say that people have to use such a > generator. > > > > > > If you can figure out how to fix it in in the rules so the right > > > behaviour pops out, though, *please* do so. There are links to > > > papers on the peg mailing list; it came up just last week; "*[1]* > > > *Packrat Parsers Can Support Left Recursion*, Alessandro Warth, > > > James R. Douglass, and Todd Millstein (2008)" is the citation I'm > > > seeing at a brief glance. > > > > > > > Great. I saw that thread and ignored it as not being relevant in > > the moment, but I'm happy to read it and play with it when I get to > > that point. > > > > I've downloaded the paper and cached it with this problem, as I'm a > > bit ahead of myself with it. > > -Alan > > -- > > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [2]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [3]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > [4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 3. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 4. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022152d69594132690495c0d9ed Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ahh, I started with xorxes' proposal ( http://www.lojban.org/tik= i/tiki-index.php?page=3DMEX+grammar+proposal ) and have been tweaking a= nd extending. But it should be largely backward compatible hopefully. Like = I said, I don't want to build it up before I know it works (or mostly w= orks).

mi'e ros

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at = 10:26 AM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
=
I'm interested.

Is this compatible with the current grammar? =A0What is it that you
mean when you say "playing around?"

-Alan

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:17:42AM +1100, Ross Ogilvie wrote:
> =A0 =A0I've been playing around with the mekso grammar recently. I= think I have a
> =A0 =A0rewrite, but I want to finish coding and check that it works as= I want it
> =A0 =A0to. I'll post tomorrow or the day after if people are inter= ested.
>
> =A0 =A0mi'e ros
>
> =A0 =A0On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 6:01 AM, .alyn.post.
> =A0 =A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wr= ote:
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 10:52:11AM -0800, Robin Lee Powell = wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 11:43:52AM -0700, .alyn.post. = wrote:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > What does the following production in the lojban = grammar mean?:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > rp-expression-tail <- rp-expression operator r= p-expression-tail /
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > ()
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > Do I understand that to mean 'the sequence of= rp-expression,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > operator, and rp-expression-tail OR nothing?'= Could the above
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > also be expressed:
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > rp-expression-tail <- (rp-expression operator = rp-expression-tail)?
> =A0 =A0 =A0> >
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > And if so, why the odd way of specifying it? I= 9;m weak on pitfalls
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > of recursive behavior in grammars, am I looking a= t a workaround
> =A0 =A0 =A0> > related to that?
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> Yes, and it mostly doesn't work. Lojban's RPN = (which, if I have my
> =A0 =A0 =A0> druthers, the next version of the language will not ha= ve, by the
> =A0 =A0 =A0> way) is left-recursive, which is problematic. See the = peg mailing
> =A0 =A0 =A0> list for various solutions, but IMO since a number of = PEG parser
> =A0 =A0 =A0> generators handle this on their own, I think we should= just have it
> =A0 =A0 =A0> be left-recursive and say that people have to use such= a generator.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0 =A0> If you can figure out how to fix it in in the rules so= the right
> =A0 =A0 =A0> behaviour pops out, though, *please* do so. There are = links to
> =A0 =A0 =A0> papers on the peg mailing list; it came up just last w= eek; "*[1]*
> =A0 =A0 =A0> *Packrat Parsers Can Support Left Recursion*, Alessand= ro Warth,
> =A0 =A0 =A0> James R. Douglass, and Todd Millstein (2008)" is = the citation I'm
> =A0 =A0 =A0> seeing at a brief glance.
> =A0 =A0 =A0>
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0Great. I saw that thread and ignored it as not being releva= nt in
> =A0 =A0 =A0the moment, but I'm happy to read it and play with it w= hen I get to
> =A0 =A0 =A0that point.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0I've downloaded the paper and cached it with this probl= em, as I'm a
> =A0 =A0 =A0bit ahead of myself with it.
> =A0 =A0 =A0-Alan
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google
> =A0 =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to [2]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send emai= l to
> =A0 =A0 =A0[3]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0 =A0[4]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups
> =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 =A01. mailto:aly= n.post@lodockikumazvati.org
> =A0 =A02. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A03. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A04. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
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--
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