From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCaubHnBBoEc_gSnQ@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 23 16:30:31 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PL3Fj-0001Is-JW; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:31 -0800 Received: by ywh1 with SMTP id 1sf1115567ywh.16 for ; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:message-id:x-ymail-osg:received :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=0TnQnCIrNg58eK7D4pQM7i9gI0OkqYmUtaRmqlCXl0s=; b=bp9M3ZCkxT1cHqOSiDZRG/N4NsJB20z782Xkpmg03l0GkRug9Ni2D//X1TFGfXnibK hipO81oarGPPPRIgH3w6pcyoltN3YZlSWC2He3P/i+oytR4lhCmpUWOY6Ihzp8SbXqPd 9/DqFPlcdDqTK5L8Tq7DTpVlSdBn6KX4AIMwk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references :date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=nI6pbN7UMcbhi2POHcedakUEIpsKZGAnEPH8sB1vPI9UrKwCESrau+A4tSt4GVgb7u pPE4YIyTIcRDxj4x+A5NOz+tKn9MG/ZycFfZ3Bo1cIPF/IItUt4fw2KLbOgTBP1b2PKm qEJ7/CkVCpegk7ZUvGPCZCWxBOpK7jV6CRsR4= Received: by 10.151.62.41 with SMTP id p41mr808244ybk.14.1290558618802; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:18 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.135.18 with SMTP id m18ls666319ybn.1.p; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.145.6 with SMTP id x6mr1928372ybn.34.1290558617015; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.145.6 with SMTP id x6mr1928371ybn.34.1290558616983; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com [68.142.199.123]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id t15si223758yhc.2.2010.11.23.16.30.15; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) client-ip=68.142.199.123; Received: (qmail 40877 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Nov 2010 00:30:11 -0000 Message-ID: <252815.27056.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: uBqd3UAVM1kQWKkRiwiaWc_K.drnYoXNJVmkiWE_scGN9q1 juTGz77dx8PLg1hrVM..OhwE.P1SmZyvxv8FqprMjIHLZPLQ6LbAJuiMWF1t h4jhJmDUO_kDJobdS9oDNunuRt7mUMyCWhi9Gx4dfakpDQ.hwMlB13nMEghW aR2JjC.lnMVASJ1L48kag4QpMXmmdXC7qWTN6vXUyp7rtaejeNW80OgO3rjB KsP14F8H5MX7TB3fO6piV1JAXhvf39FDKHAAspLDHZGxeWXfHCROiAqWO7SU ppCoaNykDIRgUVSd1AUWcPWnIc3QQdtqeFdjpLW492kqflgLYA9VprupLSMB ucCI1vhMA8mf0Em2BrIlZ8YBjO.ZeeELu5AiN9E2jFI08W_RfefTgSWkh Received: from [99.92.110.13] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:10 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/553 YahooMailWebService/0.8.107.285259 References: Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:30:10 -0800 (PST) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 68.142.199.123 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The first thing to figure out is, what do you want to talk about? Your presentation is about words: selbri, "broda" and so on. But, I suspect you want to get behind the words to the things the words stand for in various ways. I don't have CLL to hand at the moment, but I think 'la'e zo broda' comes to something like "the referent of the word 'broda'", which is, strictly speaking (in the logical part of the logical language) its extension, the set of all n-tuples (where 'broda' is an n-place predicate) on the domain of discourse which satisfy 'x1 broda x2 ...xn', a relation, in short. Now, relations can be interesting (transitive say or anti, even better), but I suspect you are on about the intension of the the term, its "meaning" in some fuzzy sense, a concept, the thing by virtue of having which an n-tuple gets in the extension (we'll skip over the formality of a function on worlds which returns for each world a set of n-tuples, blah blah blah). That is a property and so (again lacking CLL) is probably 'lo ka broda' (or even 'le', since there typically is only one, or only one to be dealt with in a particular context). ----- Original Message ---- From: Cyril Slobin To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, November 23, 2010 5:43:54 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:42 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 of > broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not to do > with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate itself, as > an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo selbri be fa > zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. {la'e zo broda} ? -- http://slobin.pp.ru/ `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, `it means just what I choose it to mean' -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. 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