From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBCnyMHmBBoE9fES7w@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 02 12:19:18 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDMO1-0006sg-Ae; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:18 -0700 Received: by ywj3 with SMTP id 3sf5684113ywj.16 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:received:received:date:from:to :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; bh=XDqa2mgflFQiTzsOmAW6v0CbQo2J7SC6sNDOdLOCmOI=; b=DtnNhhlGA34pZm9jGUR/YPZMtuVzvuCzuqc346b5FoAiH+WEXanO/WKDbcHnGnZSHh k00bd86/Ri2BQrovsFPLER0CVOC7nInoQmssfuENFnlslKeANE8h0NtgmKwlEwIBb0wT KuJRYUDOPkym6OmGsvxQ+A3gZw01OA82k8JzQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-disposition; b=TNTi+Vzg3DFSwWqouZzlA4tcBog+ZcAYgnApzxVU7pn96OTiCOQ+Yf/rhWvqPdYfgO OozuQ20WirBg7cqoPwL9xnWcDnnfrpsq3xfCK6PC0w2nfDx0dudS6vQAtJ9jKhiHVLC6 VUKfKGerWTwywBM7ZRrZa7G6DzSKYMNL/QY+8= Received: by 10.151.17.4 with SMTP id u4mr2554118ybi.32.1288725543185; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.85.5 with SMTP id n5ls188569ybl.2.p; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.11.5 with SMTP id o5mr592184ybi.35.1288725542558; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.11.5 with SMTP id o5mr592183ybi.35.1288725542531; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-f54.google.com (mail-yw0-f54.google.com [209.85.213.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id u22si2898590yba.7.2010.11.02.12.19.02; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.54 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.213.54; Received: by ywh2 with SMTP id 2so3982110ywh.27 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.126.12 with SMTP id y12mr1152121anc.41.1288725541848; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-167-179.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.167.179]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 3sm4352727ano.21.2010.11.02.12.18.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 13:18:56 -0600 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra Message-ID: <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.213.54 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline That's roughly what I had in mind for it. Note that even though there are a few gismu and that universe is closed, lujvo will need some way to be marked with these classes as well. -Alan On Tue, Nov 02, 2010 at 02:14:06PM -0400, Oren wrote: > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept what > sorts of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." > > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include all > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? > > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be considered > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one can > drink?" > > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was referring > to these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can easily > point to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied class > and that selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of > judgement should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing stopping > us. With a vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into > regular sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't > have this resource. > > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline sensicality. > That is, for bajra: > > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > > Now account for baseline sensicality: > > x1 must-be agent... > x2 must-be material... > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... > x4 must-be manner... > > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality > tags' for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only these > explicit classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any number of > 'key definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it can > sensically 'fill.' > > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... > x3 can-act-as body-part... > x4 can-act-as idea... > > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred less > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have a > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list of > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) series > of 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the degree of > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a > [1]minimal spanning sensible sentence for a set of words). You could even > develop a kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific > text-editor: as you begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' > suggestions could come up in a tooltip window. If we get this data, I'd > totally code that! > > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come up > with technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to gather > and manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. > > co'o mi'e korbi > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <[2]kali9putra@yahoo.com> > wrote: > > > > Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor > exceptions, > > he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" language. Sorry you think > this > > discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications of > Lojvan > > being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the > language > > part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to > conflict. > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > From: Lindar <[3]lindarthebard@yahoo.com> > > To: lojban <[4]lojban@googlegroups.com> > > Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM > > Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra > > > > Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > > > > > > Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i > > broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. For > > all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. > > > > (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) > > > > xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, > > why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to > > Lojban? > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [5]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [6]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [7]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [8]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [9]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > [10]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > Oren Robinson > (315) 569-2888 > 102 Morrison Ave > Somerville, MA 02144 > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_spanning_tree > 2. mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com > 3. mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com > 4. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 5. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 6. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 7. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 8. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 9. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 10. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en -- .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.