From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCf0cHmBBoEKUK0Fw@googlegroups.com Tue Nov 02 12:38:26 2010 Received: from mail-yw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.213.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PDMgW-0008Rz-Ed; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:26 -0700 Received: by ywj3 with SMTP id 3sf5703727ywj.16 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ivykXdaQUDh9jH21mVxwFkfCzDLLb2Ziz85q6PAZ3SU=; b=KcOsdKKiLRtUdaEUrgloUMx8oHRXwWC7+6MhOKgTtY1bFFdgH2h+KP3iRGmfPHuT7Q C4WisSvH2JZCCdWN/s69cpm15RarpAVXHMEx3P5Lev6qY7ECgbRAYQkOXdM0alb5lC3A XediCeIyhGQVVELta/jFAkEWWJIRC4x7+Tiq8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WNSOBDs/iKkBYBbyARMAUsOoRmTwxjc+057pTlpCHmSVIHcAC/h1nlu5wjYaEOBCkN 6FH3rj9PVem28mbcHbKGj5A85E10fZPZm7jiEivZJfv2CHI963YoJvDaKkjYeZNNU0/N 0kJ7WYP8Vymjc2tIapGe2KdKKwqvEMglrRyyI= Received: by 10.150.72.10 with SMTP id u10mr2587308yba.39.1288726687174; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.85.5 with SMTP id n5ls196365ybl.2.p; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.149.13 with SMTP id b13mr6553415ybo.51.1288726686249; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.149.13 with SMTP id b13mr6553413ybo.51.1288726685957; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gx0-f179.google.com (mail-gx0-f179.google.com [209.85.161.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g34si2903628ybc.11.2010.11.02.12.38.04; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.179; Received: by mail-gx0-f179.google.com with SMTP id 23so153539gxk.24 for ; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.42.76.145 with SMTP id e17mr6347749ick.62.1288726684291; Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.149.14 with HTTP; Tue, 2 Nov 2010 12:38:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> References: <20101102040903.GA10493@alice.local> <4e1aec20-2d77-4473-a6e3-780700105315@v20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com> <924334.40683.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20101102191856.GE10792@alice.local> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 15:38:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=90e6ba2124fd3ad5080494171039 --90e6ba2124fd3ad5080494171039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 My only question is, will we also be marking x1 of {gerku} as being an animal? lo gerku are animals, lo se skari are colors, you ve skina movies, citka food, pilno tools, djuno facts, and djica events. It is nonsensical to say {la tam cu gerku} if {tam} is a block of wood. In my opinion, it is in the same class of absurdity to say {mi djica lo mudri bliku}. Now, because people might get confused and think that x2 of djica can be an object, we should mark that x2 of djica is an event/state. Using that same reasoning, we should also mark x1 of gerku as being an animate object (or even more specific, that it must be an animal). So where's the spreadsheet and can I add x1 of gerku to it? Sorry if I'm sounding stand-offish. Maybe I'm missing what the issue is. Don't the gismu list's/jbovlaste say in the definitions of the gismu when things are expected to be (events)/(ojbects)/(volitional entity)? There's nothing in the grammar that requires them to be that, it's just absurd to put anything else there in the same way that it is absurd to refer to my mudri bliku as lo gerku. On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:18 PM, .alyn.post. wrote: > That's roughly what I had in mind for it. > > Note that even though there are a few gismu and that universe is > closed, lujvo will need some way to be marked with these classes > as well. > > -Alan > > On Tue, Nov 02, 2010 at 02:14:06PM -0400, Oren wrote: > > Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places accept what > > sorts of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places." > > > > So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful and valid > > information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to include > all > > the 'oblique' sumti places as well? > > > > Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would also be > considered > > semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing that one > can > > drink?" > > > > If things like "agent/object" are specified in these definitions, why > > shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like material states > > ("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part why I was > referring > > to these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As long as people can > easily > > point to a construction and say "according to this sumti's implied > class > > and that selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I think that type of > > judgement should have a clear litmus test. And there's nothing > stopping > > us. With a vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fall into > > regular sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we shouldn't > > have this resource. > > > > So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and every sumti > > position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline > sensicality. > > That is, for bajra: > > > > bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4 > > > > Now account for baseline sensicality: > > > > x1 must-be agent... > > x2 must-be material... > > x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part... > > x4 must-be manner... > > > > Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseline sensicality > > tags' for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions' that only > these > > explicit classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets any > number of > > 'key definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sumti places it > can > > sensically 'fill.' > > > > x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlete... > > x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface... > > x3 can-act-as body-part... > > x4 can-act-as idea... > > > > Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up with many > > high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material," and several hundred > less > > frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Each of these tags would have > a > > list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much larger) list > of > > sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semantic role. > > This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-many) > series > > of 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a series of new > > applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge the > degree of > > 'figurative language' used in a text. You could automatically generate > > sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even generate a > > [1]minimal spanning sensible sentence for a set of words). You could > even > > develop a kind of auto-complete function for a lojban-specific > > text-editor: as you begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'sensical' > > suggestions could come up in a tooltip window. If we get this data, > I'd > > totally code that! > > > > But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of this data set. > > Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, I'll come > up > > with technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy to > gather > > and manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use github. > > > > co'o mi'e korbi > > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <[2] > kali9putra@yahoo.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, with minor > > exceptions, > > > he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" language. Sorry you > think > > this > > > discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the ramifications > of > > Lojvan > > > being a logical language, dealing with both the logical part and the > > language > > > part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they appear to > > conflict. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > From: Lindar <[3]lindarthebard@yahoo.com> > > > To: lojban <[4]lojban@googlegroups.com> > > > Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM > > > Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra > > > > > > Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > > > > > > > > > Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {nu}, {.i > > > broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- an event. > For > > > all other cases, an abstractor is necessary. > > > > > > (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right now) > > > > > > xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban should work, > > > why don't you just make your -own- language and let it stand up to > > > Lojban? > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [5]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [6]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [7]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [8]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [9]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > [10]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > -- > > Oren Robinson > > (315) 569-2888 > > 102 Morrison Ave > > Somerville, MA 02144 > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_spanning_tree > > 2. mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com > > 3. mailto:lindarthebard@yahoo.com > > 4. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 5. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 6. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 7. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 8. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > > 9. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 10. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > .i ko djuno fi le do sevzi > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --90e6ba2124fd3ad5080494171039 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My only question is, will we also be marking x1 of {gerku} as being an anim= al? =A0lo gerku are animals, lo se skari are colors, you ve skina movies, c= itka food, pilno tools, djuno facts, and djica events. =A0

It is nonsensical to say {la tam cu gerku} if {tam} is a block of wood. =A0= In my=A0opinion, it is in the same class of absurdity to say {mi djica lo m= udri bliku}. =A0Now, because people might get confused and think that x2 of= djica can be an object, we should mark that x2 of djica is an event/state.= =A0Using that same reasoning, we should also mark x1 of gerku as being an = animate object (or even more specific, that it must be an animal).

So where's the spreadsheet and can I add x1 of gerk= u to it?

Sorry if I'm sounding stand-offish. = =A0Maybe I'm missing what the issue is. Don't the gismu list's/= jbovlaste say in the definitions of the gismu when things are expected to b= e (events)/(ojbects)/(volitional entity)? =A0There's nothing in the gra= mmar that requires them to be that, it's just absurd to put anything el= se there in the same way that it is absurd to refer to my mudri bliku as lo= gerku.

On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 3:18 PM, .alyn.post. = <aly= n.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote:
That's roughly what I had in mind for it.

Note that even though there are a few gismu and that universe is
closed, lujvo will need some way to be marked with these classes
as well.

-Alan

On Tue, Nov 02, 2010 at 02:14:06PM -0400, Oren wrote:
> =A0 =A0Re: "Again, the important thing is which individual places= accept what
> =A0 =A0sorts of arguments. The gismu itself just relates those places.= "
>
> =A0 =A0So then, the concept of my spreadsheet *DOES* contain useful an= d valid
> =A0 =A0information, but would only be complete if it were expanded to = include all
> =A0 =A0the 'oblique' sumti places as well?
>
> =A0 =A0Re:"Does it bother you that *{mi pinxe lo jubme} would als= o be considered
> =A0 =A0semantic nonsense, because tables aren't the sort of thing = that one can
> =A0 =A0drink?"
>
> =A0 =A0If things like "agent/object" are specified in these = definitions, why
> =A0 =A0shouldn't all 'sensical' general classes like mater= ial states
> =A0 =A0("liquid/solid") be included as well? This is in part= why I was referring
> =A0 =A0to these 'classifiers' as 'tags' originally. As= long as people can easily
> =A0 =A0point to a construction and say "according to this sumti&#= 39;s implied class
> =A0 =A0and that selbri's meaning, this makes no sense," I thi= nk that type of
> =A0 =A0judgement should have a clear litmus test. And there's noth= ing stopping
> =A0 =A0us. With a vocabulary of less than 1500 words, many of which fa= ll into
> =A0 =A0regular sub-classes in the thesaurus, I see no reason why we sh= ouldn't
> =A0 =A0have this resource.
>
> =A0 =A0So, to expand the scope here, I'm proposing that each and e= very sumti
> =A0 =A0position in gismu definitions list explicit tags for baseline s= ensicality.
> =A0 =A0That is, for bajra:
>
> =A0 =A0bajra: x1 runs on surface x2 using limbs x3 with gait x4
>
> =A0 =A0Now account for baseline sensicality:
>
> =A0 =A0x1 must-be agent...
> =A0 =A0x2 must-be material...
> =A0 =A0x3 must-be material, must-be movable-part...
> =A0 =A0x4 must-be manner...
>
> =A0 =A0Now let's envision that these clearly specified 'baseli= ne sensicality
> =A0 =A0tags' for sumti positions are like 'keyhole definitions= ' that only these
> =A0 =A0explicit classes can fit. Now, each sumti position also gets an= y number of
> =A0 =A0'key definitions' for what it can fit into, or what sum= ti places it can
> =A0 =A0sensically 'fill.'
>
> =A0 =A0x1 can-act-as agent, can-act-as moving-thing, can-act-as athlet= e...
> =A0 =A0x2 can-act-as general-place, can-act-as surface...
> =A0 =A0x3 can-act-as body-part...
> =A0 =A0x4 can-act-as idea...
>
> =A0 =A0Now, if we do this for every gismu, I imagine we'd end up w= ith many
> =A0 =A0high-frequency tags like "agent" and "material,&= quot; and several hundred less
> =A0 =A0frequent tags like "liquid" "body-part." Ea= ch of these tags would have a
> =A0 =A0list of sumti positions it requires, and a (probably much large= r) list of
> =A0 =A0sumti positions that can "sensically" fit that semant= ic role.
> =A0 =A0This data/document would not only provide a richer (many-to-man= y) series
> =A0 =A0of 'categories' for vocabulary study lists, there are a= series of new
> =A0 =A0applications this would allow. You could automatically gauge th= e degree of
> =A0 =A0'figurative language' used in a text. You could automat= ically generate
> =A0 =A0sensical example sentences for given vocabulary (or even genera= te a
> =A0 =A0[1]minimal spanning sensible sentence for a set of = words). You could even
> =A0 =A0develop a kind of auto-complete function for = a lojban-specific
> =A0 =A0text-editor: as you begin to type a sumti in, a list of 'se= nsical'
> =A0 =A0suggestions could come up in a tooltip window. If we get this d= ata, I'd
> =A0 =A0totally code that!
>
> =A0 =A0But I want to make sure I'm understanding the nature of thi= s data set.
> =A0 =A0Please let me know if I'm still making sense, and if I do, = I'll come up
> =A0 =A0with technical specs for a web interface to make this data easy= to gather
> =A0 =A0and manage. Maybe I'll use this as a way to learn to use gi= thub.
>
> =A0 =A0co'o mi'e korbi
>
> =A0 =A0On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 12:14, John E Clifford <[2]kali9putra@yahoo.com>
> =A0 =A0wrote:
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> Well, xorxes has ideas about how Lojban *does* work, and, = with minor
> =A0 =A0exceptions,
> =A0 =A0> he has got it right. So Lojban is his "other" la= nguage. Sorry you think
> =A0 =A0this
> =A0 =A0> discussion is bull-crap; it is trying to work out the rami= fications of
> =A0 =A0Lojvan
> =A0 =A0> being a logical language, dealing with both the logical pa= rt and the
> =A0 =A0language
> =A0 =A0> part, and shooting for reasonable resolution where they ap= pear to
> =A0 =A0conflict.
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> ----- Original Message ----
> =A0 =A0> From: Lindar <[3]lindarthebard@yahoo.com>
> =A0 =A0> To: lojban <[4]lojban@googlegroups.com>
> =A0 =A0> Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 9:55:04 AM
> =A0 =A0> Subject: [lojban] Re: mi kakne lo bajra
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> Oren, I answered your question some two or three times. > =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> Where x2 of broda asks for {nu} and x1 of brode asks for {= nu}, {.i
> =A0 =A0> broda lo brode} is kosher, because lo brode already -is- a= n event. For
> =A0 =A0> all other cases, an abstractor is necessary.
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> (barring all the other bullcrap/arguments going on right n= ow)
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> xorxes, since you have all these ideas about how Lojban sh= ould work,
> =A0 =A0> why don't you just make your -own- language and let it= stand up to
> =A0 =A0> Lojban?
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0> You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google
> =A0 =A0Groups
> =A0 =A0> "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0> To post to this group, send email to [5]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0> To unsubscribe from this group, send ema= il to
> =A0 =A0> [6]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0> For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0> [7]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0>
> =A0 =A0> --
> =A0 =A0> You received this message because you are subscribed to th= e Google
> =A0 =A0Groups "lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0> To post to this group, send email to [8]lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0> To unsubscribe from this group, send ema= il to
> =A0 =A0[9]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0> For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0[10]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
> =A0 =A0>
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0Oren Robinson
> =A0 =A0(315) 569-2888
> =A0 =A0102 Morrison Ave
> =A0 =A0Somerville, MA 02144
>
> =A0 =A0--
> =A0 =A0You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goo= gle Groups
> =A0 =A0"lojban" group.
> =A0 =A0To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> =A0 =A0lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> =A0 =A0For more options, visit this group at
> =A0 =A0http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> References
>
> =A0 =A0Visible links
> =A0 =A01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_spanning_tree=
> =A0 =A02. mailto:kali9putra@ya= hoo.com
> =A0 =A03. mailto:lindartheb= ard@yahoo.com
> =A0 =A04. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A05. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A06. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 =A07. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den
> =A0 =A08. mailto:lojban@goo= glegroups.com
> =A0 =A09. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> =A0 10. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den

--
.i ko djuno fi le do sevzi

--
You received this message because y= ou are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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