From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCTp7XnBBoEzszB0A@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 24 10:04:21 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PLJhW-0006OW-0v; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:04:21 -0800 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf1614pzk.16 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:04:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Rbu47CltxTKO1eBxjohPEAnhhe5OZ8gwTpc0Dc+aR3g=; b=mQl9TzKvMDCv6prTTzxbs0Z+kWjnD1X2FTUTUtp+4z3J8XbANDWvnD0m/cSCMJYCSH ZIRFIm9Fkj097uPisyRQWEqBSF/Xw2OWF9TSuDaUSx1Sk5Pzbi6lLy3g5T6Gh7cul9kK B0keg8zg3/GGYvOqUBOeRPnGC+umfDVywWQz8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ZAebqgbMQagivV8iw6jAvEmwJeZPjOVTcgB5i1yqYNj319Ob9tMvGFlrlm0ilAbwvo E22+tRbeDV1mhr14j7Brl6zzKsk9azp1hu1s4lK2mLxBwW0DRgmYyvsWhAuEiRYO3o4B QN1dOs4wPCAMA7ZoFReGXAebeW7XByazIqeys= Received: by 10.142.62.31 with SMTP id k31mr508396wfa.44.1290621843869; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:04:03 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.78.15 with SMTP id a15ls1422072wfb.2.p; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:04:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.223.7 with SMTP id v7mr5750229wfg.65.1290621839845; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.223.7 with SMTP id v7mr5750227wfg.65.1290621839791; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f45.google.com (mail-pw0-f45.google.com [209.85.160.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y8si10781618wfj.5.2010.11.24.10.03.58; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.45; Received: by mail-pw0-f45.google.com with SMTP id 6so58459pwj.4 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.134.11 with SMTP id h11mr8966963wfd.206.1290621838650; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.86.1 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:03:58 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <25796.45352.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <99731.9603.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <54925.23614.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <25796.45352.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:03:58 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd32c8a3b6ec30495d050d2 --000e0cd32c8a3b6ec30495d050d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Wait, why would the referent of {klama} be a set? And what would it contain? On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:46 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > You need to remind me what 'la'e' does then, since I thought it got to the > referent of a word, which would not be a relation but a set. If the word is > not the predicate, what do we call the word -- without going into Logjamese? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ian Johnson > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 11:16:52 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate > > At this discussion in general: a word is not a predicate. You need a {la'e} > to extract a predicate from a word that can represent a predicate, pe'i. > > mu'o mi'e latros. > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Whoa! 'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate >> substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is >> unclear. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: John E Clifford >> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >> >> I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "five terms-serving-as-arguments" >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: purpleposeidon >> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM >> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >> >> {zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}? >> >> On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson wrote: >> > {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't want >> the >> > idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition involving >> > broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate. >> > >> > I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequence or >> set >> > (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately this >> has >> > to be in English: >> > >> > The predicate "klama" takes five arguments. >> > >> > Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this actually >> but >> > I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. >> Nice to >> > know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do. >> > >> > .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky >> > wrote: >> > >> >> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by "the predicate >> >> itself as an abstract concept". You can certainly find the idea of >> broda >> >> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what you >> >> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a more >> >> concrete one? >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 of >> >>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not to >> do >> >>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate >> itself, >> >>> as >> >>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo selbri >> be >> >>> fa >> >>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. >> >>> >> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> >> > >> >> . >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd32c8a3b6ec30495d050d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wait, why would the referent of {klama} be a set? And what would it contain= ?
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:46 PM, John E Cl= ifford <kali9p= utra@yahoo.com> wrote:
You need to remind me what 'la'e' does then, since I thought= it got to the referent of a word, which would not be a relation but a set.= =A0 If the word is not the predicate, what do we call the word -- without g= oing into Logjamese?

<= b>From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.c= om>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11= :16:52 AM

Subj= ect: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

At this discussion in general: a word is not a predicate. You need a {la= 9;e} to extract a predicate from a word that can represent a predicate, pe&= #39;i.

mu'o mi'e latros.

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford <kal= i9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whoa! =A0'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. =A0So making the appr= opriate
substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear= .



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' =A0"five terms-serving-as-arguments&q= uot;



----- Original Message ----
From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ..= .}. I don't want the
> idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition involvin= g
> broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequen= ce or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately= this has
> to be in English:
>
> The predicate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this act= ually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. N= ice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do.=
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> =A0I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by =A0&= quot;the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept". =A0 You can certainly find th= e idea of broda
>> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect = that's not what you
>> mean? =A0Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a= more
>> concrete one?
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson
>> <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not &= quot;an x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is = interesting", having not to do
>>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predic= ate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it.<= br> >>>
>>> mu'o mi'e latros.
>>>
>> =A0--
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
>
>

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