From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDdp7XnBBoElbWDUA@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 24 10:05:32 2010 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PLJih-0006T8-LJ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:32 -0800 Received: by yxn35 with SMTP id 35sf15059yxn.16 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ackeUlXrPTT/3KIw3LyatKQAAxBfOue7Qw+9grAcqzg=; b=FKNVJkZGQUxbREi1ELGB3ibo8w7/JoOV5RybcvqKLe6sdor03O2KxdWdEYjRIUNpda WAR+FjdtKCawDuAyTQ0dq9kZYWdhabqV87l4KcGw4dLRtGxPzuZV3wLouPC7bohVJKO4 MvSwTCTE4X2sJELPDbARGOsNhdqbYbsWUMYXc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mV+bj8RNrprwejVCDPL2XE7WkvZisTciXgyRGc7uvufBTMfjS0oaAyPi931b2KRMGP kSIdK1K2kwKWYBz5zFokklp6h/L6V8D4vqwP3Mkp1dz6vz0r80v8h7TK0T4H/cLh9BSS mzb86mdBR4UjQqzSlA4EWhksbfwWBr115yzTI= Received: by 10.100.151.4 with SMTP id y4mr316500and.36.1290621917133; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:17 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.55.28 with SMTP id d28ls194514ana.6.p; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.123.20 with SMTP id v20mr928740anc.25.1290621916304; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.100.123.20 with SMTP id v20mr928739anc.25.1290621916266; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-gy0-f177.google.com (mail-gy0-f177.google.com [209.85.160.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id x33si1738186anx.4.2010.11.24.10.05.15; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.177; Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4so2484gyg.36 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.151.78.16 with SMTP id f16mr1427857ybl.145.1290621914044; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.81 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:05:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <99731.9603.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <54925.23614.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486248.13851.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:05:13 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5c0deb9e5e60495d054bd --000e0cd5c0deb9e5e60495d054bd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 .i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e lu'u .i lu klama lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Exactly. {.i klama} in the context {.i klama .i ...} is entirely different > from {zo klama}. > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Dubious (well, dubito). I take it {} are word quotes, but then you are >> saying that the word standing alone is a relation with all of its arguments >> indifferent. But that is not the word along, it is the word alone *taken as >> a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point here, >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Luke Bergen >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 11:47:09 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >> >> That's not true at all. {klama} = {zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no? >> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >> >>> Whoa! 'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate >>> substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is >>> unclear. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: John E Clifford >>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM >>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>> >>> I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "five terms-serving-as-arguments" >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: purpleposeidon >>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM >>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>> >>> {zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}? >>> >>> On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson wrote: >>> > {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't want >>> the >>> > idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition involving >>> > broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate. >>> > >>> > I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequence or >>> set >>> > (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately this >>> has >>> > to be in English: >>> > >>> > The predicate "klama" takes five arguments. >>> > >>> > Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this actually >>> but >>> > I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. >>> Nice to >>> > know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do. >>> > >>> > .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. >>> > >>> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by "the >>> predicate >>> >> itself as an abstract concept". You can certainly find the idea of >>> broda >>> >> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what >>> you >>> >> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a more >>> >> concrete one? >>> >> --gejyspa >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 >>> of >>> >>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not to >>> do >>> >>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate >>> itself, >>> >>> as >>> >>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo selbri >>> be >>> >>> fa >>> >>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. >>> >>> >>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> >> "lojban" group. >>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> >>> > >>> >> . >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd5c0deb9e5e60495d054bd Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'= e zo'e lu'u .i lu klama lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u

=A0
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@= gmail.com> wrote:
Exactly. {.i klama} in the conte= xt {.i klama .i ...} is entirely different from {zo klama}.=20


On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dubious (well, dubito).=A0 I take it {} are word quotes, but then yo= u are saying that the word standing alone is a relation with all of its arg= uments indifferent.=A0 But that is not the word along, it is the word alone= *taken as a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point here,


From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com= >
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 201= 0 11:47:09 AM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Describing a predicate as a predicate

That's not true at all. =A0{klama} =3D {zo'e klama zo'= e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no?

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whoa! =A0'klama&= #39; is not a bridi but a selbri. =A0So making the appropriate
substitut= ion ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear.



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <<= a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">k= ali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Desc= ribing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' = =A0"five terms-serving-as-arguments"



----- Origina= l Message ----
From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com>
To: loj= ban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describin= g a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klam= a bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbra= vado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ..= .}. I don't want the
> idea involved in a proposition involving b= roda, a proposition involving
> broda, etc. I want to be talking abou= t broda as a predicate.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into = a sequence or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {c= e}), so unfortunately this has
> to be in English:
>
> Th= e predicate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to = this actually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me= a concrete object. Nice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this= isn't all that hard to do.
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On We= d, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gma= il.com>wrote:
>
>> =A0I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean= by =A0"the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept".= =A0 You can certainly find the idea of broda
>> intersting - &quo= t;lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what you >> mean? =A0Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a= more
>> concrete one?
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 = PM, Ian Johnson
>> <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>= > Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an = x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is = interesting", having not to do
>>> with an event, proposit= ion, etc. of broda, but just the predicate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a p= retty terrible way of doing it.
>>>
>>> mu'o mi= 'e latros.
>>>
>> =A0--
>> You received this message becaus= e you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" gr= oup.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroup= s.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<l= ojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>&= gt; http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>><= br>>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the= Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this gr= oup, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit t= his group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.>
>

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=20

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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