From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCrvLXnBBoEgqQ5aw@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 24 10:49:28 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PLKPD-0000J8-Ib; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:28 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2sf36877pwi.16 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Zv7zOtLp4/ZZWV+4i2gDb0TLZwA9aNPQyvaxev/jrE8=; b=gnYXTusXBuJ1+8h1k2hNV2yt0srxDPX4NxMR7Xo3KVMBdhdo+821dRP4na2lqFJHGM xOfM0Csi9ub128T9owUkRUky/ybTamOLbKPCS+4s6BAyWO7Gr0FY1Snix7SRzVk9EIOB Js5z0oeYr7cUh/915zLBX20DyAqYpAg35AjpQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=POzIU967xpJDL0XGzY8/lWPYzvRqF2fPCsIFX6LjkzjGyjx1K54DS4+cRtXhULReX8 kRNwHdXTLWZG7zs5Owe6y2bNsW61Gm4OArYaxORAl8S/KAUYOT10EiZy0tayK/9h3NDK 5b9GLhuLS2m3s0DuwLc79o5ot3kWIwnB9Dngw= Received: by 10.142.149.20 with SMTP id w20mr506094wfd.17.1290624555051; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:15 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.249.41 with SMTP id w41ls1482449wfh.1.p; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.98.16 with SMTP id v16mr5796612wfb.49.1290624553842; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.98.16 with SMTP id v16mr5796611wfb.49.1290624553796; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pv0-f182.google.com (mail-pv0-f182.google.com [74.125.83.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id f13si10827125wfo.4.2010.11.24.10.49.12; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:12 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.182; Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22so131456pvc.27 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.15.137 with SMTP id k9mr9975420iba.58.1290624551424; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.231.208.81 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:49:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <370254.63271.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <99731.9603.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <54925.23614.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <486248.13851.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <370254.63271.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:49:11 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022153dd7cfed11a80495d0f104 --0022153dd7cfed11a80495d0f104 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > 'minyu' seems a bit strong, though I guess there is a place for "in > respect " so sticking a "meaning" ('lo ka smana'? I really have to find > that stuff again) in would almost do it, though it still is equating a > floating word with a sentence (but maybe 'lu..lu'u' makes a claim that what > is enclosed is a sentence). > An omitted place in a Lojban bridi is exactly equal to {zo'e} {mi klama lo zdani lo zarci fi lo karce} is exactly equal to {mi klama lo zdani lo zarci zo'e lo karce} Therefore, {klama} is exactly equal to {zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e}. > ------------------------------ > *From:* Jonathan Jones > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 12:05:13 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate > > .i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e lu'u .i lu klama > lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u > > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> Exactly. {.i klama} in the context {.i klama .i ...} is entirely different >> from {zo klama}. >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >> >>> Dubious (well, dubito). I take it {} are word quotes, but then you are >>> saying that the word standing alone is a relation with all of its arguments >>> indifferent. But that is not the word along, it is the word alone *taken as >>> a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point here, >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Luke Bergen >>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 11:47:09 AM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>> >>> That's not true at all. {klama} = {zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no? >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >>> >>>> Whoa! 'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate >>>> substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is >>>> unclear. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: John E Clifford >>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>> >>>> I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "five terms-serving-as-arguments" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: purpleposeidon >>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>> >>>> {zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}? >>>> >>>> On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson wrote: >>>> > {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't want >>>> the >>>> > idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition >>>> involving >>>> > broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate. >>>> > >>>> > I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequence >>>> or set >>>> > (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately >>>> this has >>>> > to be in English: >>>> > >>>> > The predicate "klama" takes five arguments. >>>> > >>>> > Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this >>>> actually but >>>> > I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. >>>> Nice to >>>> > know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do. >>>> > >>>> > .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by "the >>>> predicate >>>> >> itself as an abstract concept". You can certainly find the idea of >>>> broda >>>> >> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what >>>> you >>>> >> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a more >>>> >> concrete one? >>>> >> --gejyspa >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 >>>> of >>>> >>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not >>>> to do >>>> >>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate >>>> itself, >>>> >>> as >>>> >>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo selbri >>>> be >>>> >>> fa >>>> >>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>>> >>> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> >> "lojban" group. >>>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> > >>>> >> . >>>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> > "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu > do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022153dd7cfed11a80495d0f104 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:38 AM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:
'minyu' seems a bit strong, though I guess there is a place fo= r "in respect " so sticking a "meaning" ('lo ka sma= na'?=A0 I really have to find that stuff again) in would almost do it, = though it still is equating a floating word with a sentence (but maybe '= ;lu..lu'u' makes a claim that what is enclosed is a sentence).
=A0
An omitted place in a Lojban bridi is exactly equal to {zo'e}
=A0
{mi klama lo zdani lo zarci fi lo karce} is exactly equal to {mi klama= lo zdani lo zarci zo'e lo karce}
=A0
Therefore, {klama} is exactly equal to {zo'e klama zo'e zo'= ;e zo'e zo'e}.
=A0
=A0
From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com&= gt;
To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, November 24, 201= 0 12:05:13 PM=20

Subject:<= /b> Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

.i lu klama lu'u mintu lu zo'e klama zo'e zo'e zo'= e zo'e lu'u .i lu klama lu'u drata lu zo klama lu'u

=A0
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 11:03 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
Exactly. {.i klama} = in the context {.i klama .i ...} is entirely different from {zo klama}.=20


On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:52 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dubious (well, dubito).=A0 I take it {} are word quotes, but then yo= u are saying that the word standing alone is a relation with all of its arg= uments indifferent.=A0 But that is not the word along, it is the word alone= *taken as a sentence*, which is not, I think, the point here,


From: Luke Bergen <luke= abergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 201= 0 11:47:09 AM=20

Subject: Re: [lojb= an] Describing a predicate as a predicate

That's not true at all. =A0{klama} =3D {zo'e klama zo'= e zo'e zo'e zo'e} no?

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Cliffor= d <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whoa! =A0'klama&= #39; is not a bridi but a selbri. =A0So making the appropriate
substitut= ion ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear.



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <<= a href=3D"mailto:kali9putra@yahoo.com" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">k= ali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Desc= ribing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' = =A0"five terms-serving-as-arguments"



----- Origina= l Message ----
From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com>
To: loj= ban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describin= g a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klam= a bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbra= vado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ..= .}. I don't want the
> idea involved in a proposition involving b= roda, a proposition involving
> broda, etc. I want to be talking abou= t broda as a predicate.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into = a sequence or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {c= e}), so unfortunately this has
> to be in English:
>
> Th= e predicate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to = this actually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me= a concrete object. Nice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this= isn't all that hard to do.
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On We= d, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gma= il.com>wrote:
>
>> =A0I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean= by =A0"the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept".= =A0 You can certainly find the idea of broda
>> intersting - &quo= t;lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what you >> mean? =A0Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a= more
>> concrete one?
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 = PM, Ian Johnson
>> <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>= > Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an = x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is = interesting", having not to do
>>> with an event, proposit= ion, etc. of broda, but just the predicate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a p= retty terrible way of doing it.
>>>
>>> mu'o mi= 'e latros.
>>>
>> =A0--
>> You received this message becaus= e you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" gr= oup.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroup= s.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<l= ojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you a= re subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
>= ; To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit t= his group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.>
>

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=20

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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=20

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

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