From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCHwrXnBBoENH4sGw@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 24 11:01:44 2010 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PLKb1-0000mb-W2; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:44 -0800 Received: by pzk7 with SMTP id 7sf14477pzk.16 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=hgSOUjakzkxEPKdL6XDJieDvG89Rn7ablvJ6iBphSDo=; b=faj7giKctKlm9VUkry9qFRDCf2127E/ewtnZdXy/ch43sbBoya4W/EDG3c7fGsHj8M SC+fGS2/LUFdPqbkD0KfI4jM6vg4y+p5hx6QE1Yk3UuLLTSb9cBCEJ4F3S1Y1WXT0g0r rdUL4aIxyLv2riDSCPw7mEMVRaX8ctUAd3d9s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=uc9KTvijLB97tEIaePSBRMG5WXGoIPju33b42jvTBwwTPRjuWnhpZ5EbSH/VQspQQg ceNMU++V4CK2lU0r88D2XS93ME794idYgBknTbR2q61ErAR2ld9Uhw6azazTp4DUZne3 tb2GJS/gZf0dMPoPFrmuN15THoNgwuzhQhyPk= Received: by 10.142.208.5 with SMTP id f5mr522684wfg.39.1290625287307; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.2.41 with SMTP id 41ls1503531wfb.0.p; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.161.19 with SMTP id j19mr540115wfe.39.1290625284941; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.161.19 with SMTP id j19mr540114wfe.39.1290625284821; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pw0-f53.google.com (mail-pw0-f53.google.com [209.85.160.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y8si10837801wfj.5.2010.11.24.11.01.23; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.53; Received: by pwi3 with SMTP id 3so45781pwi.26 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:23 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.245.15 with SMTP id s15mr9064591wfh.263.1290625283620; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.86.1 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 11:01:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <219450.48017.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <99731.9603.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <54925.23614.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <25796.45352.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <219450.48017.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 14:01:23 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd172b49186f20495d11d66 --000e0cd172b49186f20495d11d66 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Ah, I see, it's "a set" in the same sense that a relation is a set of ordered pairs. That makes sense. mu'o mi'e latros. On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:44 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > That's the extension of a term, in this case a predicate: the set of all > things that satisfy the predicate, so, in the case of 'klama' a set of > quintuples of objects, places, places, routes between aforementioned places, > and modes of transportation, such that the first is going from the second to > the third along the fourth by means of the fifth. That is also a five-place > relation, if you want to say that the referent should be a relation. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ian Johnson > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 12:03:58 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate > > Wait, why would the referent of {klama} be a set? And what would it > contain? > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:46 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> You need to remind me what 'la'e' does then, since I thought it got to the >> referent of a word, which would not be a relation but a set. If the word is >> not the predicate, what do we call the word -- without going into Logjamese? >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ian Johnson >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 11:16:52 AM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >> >> At this discussion in general: a word is not a predicate. You need a >> {la'e} to extract a predicate from a word that can represent a predicate, >> pe'i. >> >> mu'o mi'e latros. >> >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford wrote: >> >>> Whoa! 'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate >>> substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is >>> unclear. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: John E Clifford >>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM >>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>> >>> I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "five terms-serving-as-arguments" >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: purpleposeidon >>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM >>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>> >>> {zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}? >>> >>> On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson wrote: >>> > {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't want >>> the >>> > idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition involving >>> > broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate. >>> > >>> > I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequence or >>> set >>> > (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately this >>> has >>> > to be in English: >>> > >>> > The predicate "klama" takes five arguments. >>> > >>> > Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this actually >>> but >>> > I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. >>> Nice to >>> > know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do. >>> > >>> > .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. >>> > >>> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> >> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by "the >>> predicate >>> >> itself as an abstract concept". You can certainly find the idea of >>> broda >>> >> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what >>> you >>> >> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a more >>> >> concrete one? >>> >> --gejyspa >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson >>> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 >>> of >>> >>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not to >>> do >>> >>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate >>> itself, >>> >>> as >>> >>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo selbri >>> be >>> >>> fa >>> >>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. >>> >>> >>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> >> "lojban" group. >>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> >>> > >>> >> . >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> > "lojban" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd172b49186f20495d11d66 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, I see, it's "a set" in the same sense that a relation is = a set of ordered pairs. That makes sense.

mu'o mi'e latros.<= br>
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:44 PM, John E C= lifford <kali9= putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
That's the extension of a term, in this case a predicate: the set of= all things that satisfy the predicate, so, in the case of 'klama' = a set of quintuples of objects, places, places, routes between aforemention= ed places, and modes of transportation, such that the first is going from t= he second to the third along the fourth by means of the fifth. That is also= a five-place relation, if you want to say that the referent should be a re= lation.

Sent: Wed, November = 24, 2010 12:03:58 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicat= e as a predicate

Wait, why would the referent of {klama} be a set? And what would it contain= ?
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:46 PM, John E Cl= ifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
You need to remind me what 'la'e' does then, since I thought it= got to the referent of a word, which would not be a relation but a set.=A0= If the word is not the predicate, what do we call the word -- without goin= g into Logjamese?


<= b>From: Ian Johnson <bli= ndbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups= .com
Sent: Wed, Nov= ember 24, 2010 11:16:52 AM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

At this discussion in general: a word is not a predicate. You need a {la= 9;e} to extract a predicate from a word that can represent a predicate, pe&= #39;i.

mu'o mi'e latros.

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford <kal= i9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whoa! =A0'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. =A0So making the appr= opriate
substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear= .



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' =A0"five terms-serving-as-arguments&q= uot;



----- Original Message ----
From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ..= .}. I don't want the
> idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition involvin= g
> broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequen= ce or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately= this has
> to be in English:
>
> The predicate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this act= ually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. N= ice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do.=
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> =A0I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by =A0&= quot;the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept". =A0 You can certainly find th= e idea of broda
>> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect = that's not what you
>> mean? =A0Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a= more
>> concrete one?
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson
>> <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not &= quot;an x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is = interesting", having not to do
>>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predic= ate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it.<= br> >>>
>>> mu'o mi'e latros.
>>>
>> =A0--
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.=
>
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.




--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.




--
You received this message because you are subscribed t= o the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--000e0cd172b49186f20495d11d66--