From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCXzrfnBBoEXS4IPw@googlegroups.com Wed Nov 24 20:33:43 2010 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1PLTWb-00041b-QN; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:43 -0800 Received: by pwi2 with SMTP id 2sf242217pwi.16 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:x-beenthere:received:received:received :received:received-spf:received:mime-version:received:received :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ghksfRFSGFS/fNqATFUCTIYp/K5/NQgTim4+2k5KEJA=; b=lCoXVG8+pFbKKe+RGDKe2IkgGKxod/iFFX8H4k49SxgznN/B62M+fK/yWK8Ygo07jh g+4QZ79Y+pjU7E5tBK+NnKfIMQ07zgpQ8+eXMh6vok26u317CcsHks6JxETeb1G2nSyN MK+gfK9sgszKT6iFNjbiRtU5GX2hJkBUXryrg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=xmCcxwIKsnlaR5YedDBwNG0ECfyhCNDq7sSmgs98TKa/dWB21608n8Myb39HuTA4iY wRgDL5YkUi26Fyv5jfGOrQPR62CQwC27trSpy0B/RRJ35+Bv1RyFlSeTGub1QZUYPPhx dUZWUGqeG6drdBlPMNSil6tfd2muX3Z3adtaY= Received: by 10.143.20.28 with SMTP id x28mr10734wfi.61.1290659607822; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:27 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.78.15 with SMTP id a15ls2169710wfb.2.p; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.150.22 with SMTP id x22mr195480wfd.26.1290659606686; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.150.22 with SMTP id x22mr195478wfd.26.1290659606625; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pz0-f47.google.com (mail-pz0-f47.google.com [209.85.210.47]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id y8si376757wfj.5.2010.11.24.20.33.25; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.47; Received: by pzk12 with SMTP id 12so23955pzk.6 for ; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.229.4 with SMTP id b4mr186747wfh.377.1290659605466; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.86.1 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Nov 2010 20:33:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <893790.5970.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <893790.5970.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 23:33:25 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.47 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd14fa04f50390495d91b05 --000e0cd14fa04f50390495d91b05 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was referring to the usual primitive definition of relation, as a subset of the Cartesian product of two sets. But you're right, of course. On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:59 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > Well, a set of n-tuples for the appropriate n (though you can do it, > messily, using only pairs). > > Sent from my iPad > > On Nov 24, 2010, at 13:01, Ian Johnson wrote: > > Ah, I see, it's "a set" in the same sense that a relation is a set of > ordered pairs. That makes sense. > > mu'o mi'e latros. > > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:44 PM, John E Clifford < > kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> That's the extension of a term, in this case a predicate: the set of all >> things that satisfy the predicate, so, in the case of 'klama' a set of >> quintuples of objects, places, places, routes between aforementioned places, >> and modes of transportation, such that the first is going from the second to >> the third along the fourth by means of the fifth. That is also a five-place >> relation, if you want to say that the referent should be a relation. >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Ian Johnson < blindbravado@gmail.com> >> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 12:03:58 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >> >> Wait, why would the referent of {klama} be a set? And what would it >> contain? >> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:46 PM, John E Clifford < >> kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> You need to remind me what 'la'e' does then, since I thought it got to >>> the referent of a word, which would not be a relation but a set. If the >>> word is not the predicate, what do we call the word -- without going into >>> Logjamese? >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Ian Johnson < blindbravado@gmail.com> >>> *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com >>> *Sent:* Wed, November 24, 2010 11:16:52 AM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>> >>> At this discussion in general: a word is not a predicate. You need a >>> {la'e} to extract a predicate from a word that can represent a predicate, >>> pe'i. >>> >>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford < >>> kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Whoa! 'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. So making the appropriate >>>> substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is >>>> unclear. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: John E Clifford < kali9putra@yahoo.com> >>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>> >>>> I suppose 'lo mu terbri' "five terms-serving-as-arguments" >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: purpleposeidon < >>>> purpleposeidon@gmail.com> >>>> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >>>> Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate >>>> >>>> {zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}? >>>> >>>> On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson < >>>> blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> > {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ...}. I don't want >>>> the >>>> > idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition >>>> involving >>>> > broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate. >>>> > >>>> > I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequence >>>> or set >>>> > (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately >>>> this has >>>> > to be in English: >>>> > >>>> > The predicate "klama" takes five arguments. >>>> > >>>> > Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this >>>> actually but >>>> > I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. >>>> Nice to >>>> > know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do. >>>> > >>>> > .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros. >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky >>>> > < mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by "the >>>> predicate >>>> >> itself as an abstract concept". You can certainly find the idea of >>>> broda >>>> >> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect that's not what >>>> you >>>> >> mean? Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a more >>>> >> concrete one? >>>> >> --gejyspa >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson >>>> >> < blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not "an x1 >>>> of >>>> >>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is interesting", having not >>>> to do >>>> >>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predicate >>>> itself, >>>> >>> as >>>> >>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo selbri >>>> be >>>> >>> fa >>>> >>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> mu'o mi'e latros. >>>> >>> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> >> "lojban" group. >>>> >> To post to this group, send email to >>>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> >> >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com< >>>> lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>>> > >>>> >> . >>>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>>> >> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> > "lojban" group. >>>> > To post to this group, send email to >>>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> > >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> > For more options, visit this group at >>>> > >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd14fa04f50390495d91b05 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was referring to the usual primitive definition of relation, as a subset = of the Cartesian product of two sets. But you're right, of course.
<= br>
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:59 PM, John E. Cli= fford <kali9pu= tra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, a set of n-tuples for the appropriate n (though you can = do it, messily, using only pairs).

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 24, 2010, at 1= 3:01, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

=
Ah, I see, it's "a set" in the same se= nse that a relation is a set of ordered pairs. That makes sense.

mu'o mi'e latros.

On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 1:44 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo= .com> wrote:
That's the extension of a term, in this case a p= redicate: the set of all things that satisfy the predicate, so, in the case= of 'klama' a set of quintuples of objects, places, places, routes = between aforementioned places, and modes of transportation, such that the f= irst is going from the second to the third along the fourth by means of the= fifth. That is also a five-place relation, if you want to say that the ref= erent should be a relation.

Sent: Wed, November = 24, 2010 12:03:58 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a pre= dicate as a predicate

Wait, why would the referent of {klama} be a set? And what would it contain= ?
On Wed, Nov 24, 201= 0 at 12:46 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>= wrote:
You need to remind me what 'la'e' does then, since I thought it= got to the referent of a word, which would not be a relation but a set.=A0= If the word is not the predicate, what do we call the word -- without goin= g into Logjamese?

From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@= gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.comSent: Wed, November 24, = 2010 11:16:52 AM

Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate
=
At this discussion in general: a word is not a predicate. You need a {la= 9;e} to extract a predicate from a word that can represent a predicate, pe&= #39;i.


mu'o mi'e latros.
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 12:06 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo= .com> wrote:
Whoa! =A0'klama' is not a bridi but a selbri. =A0So making the appr= opriate
substitution ought to get it right, whether it is what is wanted is unclear= .



----- Original Message ----
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
To: loj= ban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 11:03:53 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

I suppose 'lo mu terbri' =A0"five terms-serving-as-arguments&q= uot;



----- Original Message ----
From: purpleposeidon <purpleposeidon@gmail.com>
To: loj= ban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 24, 2010 10:40:47 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Describing a predicate as a predicate

{zo klama bridi fi mu terbri}, {zo klama bridi fi mu lo ro terbri}?

On 11/24/10, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> {lo si'o broda} expands to {lo si'o zo'e broda zo'e ..= .}. I don't want the
> idea involved in a proposition involving broda, a proposition involvin= g
> broda, etc. I want to be talking about broda as a predicate.
>
> I don't actually know how to take {mu da} and put it into a sequen= ce or set
> (short of using a vast excess of {ce'o} or {ce}), so unfortunately= this has
> to be in English:
>
> The predicate "klama" takes five arguments.
>
> Anyway, {la'e zo} works. I had that idea before coming to this act= ually but
> I suspected for some reason that it might give me a concrete object. N= ice to
> know that it doesn't, and that this isn't all that hard to do.=
>
> .i ki'e .i mu'o mi'e latros.
>
> On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Michael Turniansky
> <= mturniansky@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> =A0I'm having real trouble understanding what you mean by =A0&= quot;the predicate
>> itself as an abstract concept". =A0 You can certainly find th= e idea of broda
>> intersting - "lo si'o broda cu cinri", but I expect = that's not what you
>> mean? =A0Is there any way you can put your abstract example into a= more
>> concrete one?
>> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--gejyspa
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 23, 2010 at 5:42 PM, Ian Johnson
>> <blindbravado@gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Is there a way to take a selbri and make a sumti that is not &= quot;an x1 of
>>> broda" but simply "broda"; like "broda is = interesting", having not to do
>>> with an event, proposition, etc. of broda, but just the predic= ate itself,
>>> as
>>> an abstract concept? About the only idea I have is to use {lo = selbri be
>>> fa
>>> zo broda} which seems like a pretty terrible way of doing it.<= br> >>>
>>> mu'o mi'e latros.
>>>
>> =A0--
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com<lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
>> .
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.<= /span>
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups
> "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
>

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